A VO2 Max Scientist Broke Down What Your Run Watch Doesn’t Say (Masterclass)

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What if the thing that helps you run faster now also protects you from becoming fragile later?

In this masterclass series, I break down VO2 max in the most practical way possible: what it is, why runners should care, how much your watch can actually be trusted, and why the number matters for way more than race performance. We get into the difference between VO2 max, threshold, running economy, zone 2, hard intervals, and field testing. And we do it all without turning it into a science textbook.

The bigger idea is simple: VO2 max is not just about running faster. It is about building a higher ceiling now so you have more room to perform, recover, age well, and avoid becoming fragile later. We also cover the workouts that actually move the needle, why easy running alone is probably not enough if you are time-poor, and how to start adding VO2 max work without blowing yourself up.

I sat (virtually!) down with Brady Holmer for a full masterclass on it. Brady wrote the book on VO2 max (literally, it’s called VO2 Max Essentials). He’s a 2:24 marathoner, he’s got a Master’s in human performance, and he hangs out in the science world with people like Rhonda Patrick, Andrew Huberman, Thomas Watson (guy who founded the Marathon Handbook), etc. The dude knows his stuff.

And the first thing he told me? That number on your watch isn’t really your VO2 max. It’s a guess.

Let me explain.

Key Takeaways

1. VO2 max is your aerobic ceiling, but it is not the whole story. It measures the maximum rate your body can use oxygen to create energy, but running economy, threshold, durability, and training history all shape how fast you actually run.
2. The longevity angle might matter even more than the performance angle. VO2 max naturally trends downward with age, so the goal is to build a high enough ceiling now that daily life does not become physically hard later.
3. You improve VO2 max by touching hard efforts intelligently. Easy running helps, but the biggest return usually comes from structured intervals like 4x4s, 400m repeats, hill work, 5K racing, and smart progressive training.

What VO2 max actually is (the simple version)

VO2 max is the most oxygen your body can use when you’re going all out. Your lungs grab the air, your heart pumps the oxygen-rich blood out to your muscles, and your muscles use it to make energy. The faster you can do all of that, the higher your VO2 max.

Think of it as your engine size. A big engine has more power on tap.

Here’s something kinda dope that took me a few years to really get: A big engine doesn’t win the race by itself. You can drop a Ferrari engine into a beat-up Honda Civic and it’s still gonna drive like a Honda Civic. The tires, the suspension, the weight of the car, aerodynamics, all of that matters too. In running, we call that stuff running economy (aka how efficient your body is at using said oxygen to propel yourself forward). So VO2 max is the engine, sure, but it’s not the whole car.

That’s the reframe of this whole conversation, TBH. VO2 max matters. It just isn’t the only thing that matters, and the number itself isn’t even the point.

Your watch is guessing (and that’s dope)

When you do a real VO2 max test, you’re on a treadmill with a mask strapped to your face, breathing into a tube while they run you to exhaustion (or your oxygen levels flatten or drop). That test measures your oxygen use directly and it’s very VERY accurate with the number that it spits out.

Your watch doesn’t do any of that. It takes your heart rate at a certain pace/intensity/power (for cyclist), mixes in your age and weight and sex, runs it through an algorithm built on a big database of other people, and spits out an estimate. It’s a prediction, not a measurement.

So don’t stress when your Garmin says your VO2 max dropped two points overnight. You didn’t get unfit while you slept.

Quick story: I got a proper lab test done eight years ago and scored around 56. Trained hard for the following 8 years after I got said test and I got way fitter! I raced way faster, then got tested again last year. The number was 55.

I was kinda mad and said “How am I a much better runner with basically the same number?”

Brady’s answer made it make sense. If your VO2 max stayed the same but you got faster, that just proves the number isn’t the whole story. I improved my running economy, my threshold, and my durability. All the other stuff that makes you fast. The engine stayed the same size, but the rest of the car got way better.

Threshold vs VO2 max (so you stop mixing them up)

You hear “threshold” and “VO2 max” thrown around and you either are confused or think they’re the same thing. They’re not.

Threshold is the pace you can hold for a long time (about 1 hour) before things fall apart. For most people that’s somewhere around high zone 3 or low zone 4 heart rate on a five zone heart rate scale.

VO2 max is higher. It’s very much in zone 4 and even zone 5 for some people. It’s your proper top end (this is why it’s MAX, because it’s the maximum volume of oxygen that you can take in and use). VO2 max intervals are short (kinda!) and brutal (very), and are usually around four to five minutes because that’s what the studies say and coaches. Anything more might improve Vo2 max, but increases the risk of burnout, injury, etc.

Here’s another dope thing: The fitter you get, the closer your threshold creeps up toward your VO2 max. Look at the guys running sub- and low-two-hour marathons. They can hold around 85 to 90% of their max for the entire marathon. Their threshold and their ceiling are almost touching. That’s elite level stuff.

The part that actually got me: longevity

Okay, this is the bit that I think matters more than the running stuff (And I say that as a dude who loves the running stuff)

Your VO2 max naturally drops as you age. That’s just biology doing it’s thing and it happens to everybody. But how high you build it now decides how high it stays later when it’s naturally falling.

Brady talked about the frailty threshold. There’s a point, way down low, where everyday life starts to become a max effort.

• Carrying groceries up the stairs.
• Getting out of bed.
• Making your toast and grabbing a banana.

When your VO2 max drops low enough, even those normal little tasks start to feel like a workout. Below a certain point you literally can’t take care of yourself anymore.

That number is about 15 for a Vo2 Max.

That’s why a fit 60-year-old is often healthier than a sedentary 30-year-old. The fit older person built a high ceiling, so even after years of natural decline they’ve still got a bunch of room left. The young couch potato never built anything, so they’ve got nowhere to fall.

And it gets a bit scarier. Brady brought up the catabolic crisis.

Say you’re older, you fall, you break a hip, you spend three or four weeks in a hospital bed. The amount of fitness you lose in those few weeks of lying around can be worse than decades of normal aging. You can age yourself a crazy amount just by being stuck in bed.

So the goal isn’t to chase a flashy number for your watch. The goal is to bring up your floor. Build a high enough ceiling now so that you stay strong, mobile, and independent for as long as humanly possible. Be the grandparent who can still get down on the floor and play, then actually get back up without throwing their back.

Slow down the slowing down.

How you actually improve it

You don’t need anything fancy.

Easy running builds your base and you need that base. This base also indirectly improves VO2 Max, slowly, but gives you the jumping-off point to then do harder workouts. But if you’re time-poor and you want the biggest bang for your buck, the magic happens at higher intensity. The research shows higher intensity work can be way more effective than easy stuff for raising VO2 max, like nine times more effective per minute spent.

If you’ve never done a real VO2 max workout, the Norwegian 4×4 is your friend. Four minutes hard, three minutes easy jog, repeated four times. That’s it. Simple, brutal, proven.

Scared of going that hard? Start smaller. Do 30 seconds hard, 30 seconds easy, and build up from there. Your body adapts to the discomfort way faster than your brain thinks it will. Promise.

And don’t tell yourself you’re just “not built for this.” Brady busted the whole non-responder myth, which is a claim that some people just don’t improve their fitness, no matter what. What actually happens is that those people just weren’t training hard enough or often enough. When researchers cranked up the intensity or added more sessions, everybody responded.

You also don’t need to wonder if it’s working forever. People say VO2 max stops improving after six weeks, which isn’t fully accurate. A lot of the studies only ran six weeks, so that’s all they measured. You can keep building well beyond that, but the more fit you are, the harder it is to build, as you need more stimulus, aka more intensity/volume, which then becomes a risk for burnout.

Test it yourself for free

To test your VO2 Max, you don’t need a lab. Just go run as hard as you can (7 to 8 out of 10 effort) for 12 minutes and measure how far you got. Or run for 2.4km (1.5 miles) and use your time.

That’s the Cooper test, and you can plug the distance into a calculator to get a solid estimate. Or just race a hard 5K every 4-8 weeks on the same course (Park Runs are great for this) and watch the time. Faster time means higher Vo2 Max, higher threshold, more efficient running economy, and a much fitter you.

Find your age, find your target number on a VO2 max chart and see where you land. If you’re below “good” for your age, this whole thing just got really important for you.

VO2 max still matters, as it always will. Just stop staring at the number on your wrist like it’s the absolute gospel, and start building the engine that keeps you fast NOW so you can live a full life LATER.

Timestamps

• [00:01:46] Vo2 Max Defined
• [00:03:42] What’s The difference between watch and mask treadmill lab test
• [00:05:20] Use This To Improve Your Vo2 Max Now
• [00:07:11] Why Vo2 Max isn’t the only metric to make you a better runner
• [00:07:51] Brady’s back story and his Vo2 Max of 80
• [00:08:54] Is the Car Analogy the best for Vo2 Max?
• [00:10:12] Ignore Your Smart Watch and Focus on the Bigger Zoomed out Story
• [00:11:26] Take These After Vo2 Max Runs To Recover Better
• [00:14:39] Why Low Carb Won’t Get You To your Best Time
• [00:15:55] Difference between Threshold & Vo2 Max HR zones
• [00:18:18] Can you improve Vo2 Max by not doing zone 4 work?
• [00:18:58] Physiology is a spectrum not an exact
• [00:20:42] Don’t Rely on 220 Minus Age for Max HR Number
• [00:22:42] Do You Have To Run at a Certain Speed/Force to Improve Vo2 Max?
• [00:26:16] How can someone go and test their Vo2 Max?
• [00:27:45] Does Doing The Mile Help Improve Vo2 Max?
• [00:28:37] Is it Good to do a Vo2 Max & Threshold Lab Test Same Time?
• [00:29:25] Why Vo2 Max & Longevity are so connected
• [00:31:17] Why Fit Trained 60yo Are Healthier than Sedentary 30yo
• [00:35:30] Why Low Vo2 Max on Older People is so Dangerous
• [00:41:08] Zone 2 vs Vo2 Max Training and Fitness
• [00:43:43] Is Zone 3, 4 and 5 better for Time Strapped Runners?
• [00:46:12] Higher intensity training is 9 times more effective than low intensity
• [00:47:58] What Vo2 Max Number is Best to Target?
• [00:51:34] Why Norwegian 4×4 is the best for beginners with Vo2 Max
• [00:53:33] Is 30 sec on 20 sec off good for new vo2 max runners?
• [00:56:14] Should Vo2 Max Intervals go over 5 minutes
• [00:57:48] Does Vo2 Max Stop Improving after 6 Weeks
• [00:59:50] Why There Is Not Such Thing a Non Exercise Responder
• [01:02:13] How a New Runner Can Get Used to Vo2 Max Efforts
• [01:06:06] Starter 3 Days a Week Build Your Vo2 Max Plan
• [01:09:06] Is This a Vo2 Max Workout? (Rapid Fire)
• [01:15:44] Does Sauna Improve Vo2 Max?
• [01:16:35] Where To Find Brady Online & His Vo2 Max Book
• [01:17:25] Why Everyone Should Get a Vo2 Max Test

[transcript]

[00:00:00] Brady Holmer: Once you drop below that, basically daily life just becomes hard. When you walk and get out of bed and go downstairs to make your toast and get a banana, that’s a VO2 max effort because you’re so physically unfit. Three to four weeks just laying in a bed is literally worse than, like, a couple decades of aging.

[00:00:14] Brady Holmer: My VO2 max was a 73, and this was when I was 16 years old. 

[00:00:18] Daren DLake: The guy that wrote the book on VO2 max essentials doesn’t do a VO2 max workout every single day? 

[00:00:23] Brady Holmer: If you throw more intensity or throw more volume at the people, everybody responds eventually. 

[00:00:27] Daren DLake: If someone’s watching and wants to know their actual VO2 max without going to a lab, what do they do?

[00:00:32] Brady Holmer: Go and run for- 

[00:00:33] Daren DLake: This is a full VO2 max masterclass. It’s got three parts. Part one, what VO2 max really is and how to test yours without a lab. Part two, the longevity side, why your number now decides how you live at 70 and 80 years old and longer. And part three, how to actually train it, plus a rapid-fire round where Brady and I call out what counts as a real VO2 max workout.

[00:00:57] Daren DLake: It’s really fun. Hit the timestamps in the [00:01:00] description or show notes below to jump to whatever part you want. Let’s get into it. Today, I’m joined by Brady Holmoe, master’s in human performance from University of Florida, author of VO2 Max Essentials, ran at University of Kentucky D1. Had a lot of great times there.

[00:01:15] Daren DLake: 2:24 marathoner. He’s a regular on Dr. Rhonda Patrick’s FoundMyFitness Journal Club. He took over Amby Burfoot’s Run Long Run Healthy newsletter, and a few months ago, Huberman tagged him on X to break down whether you can build strength and endurance at the same time. Brady, welcome to the 1% Better Runner.

[00:01:33] Brady Holmer: Daren, happy to be here. 

[00:01:34] Daren DLake: So we’re gonna do a masterclass today because VO2 max, as you said earlier before we hit record- I- it’s evergreen. It is something that we keep building on and getting more and more information. Let’s just jump right into it ’cause we got a lot to talk about here. So the first question, Mr.

[00:01:48] Daren DLake: Brady, your watch says VO2 max 38. What does that actually mean? 

[00:01:53] Brady Holmer: Well, first of all, if your watch says VO2 max of 38, work on getting that thing up, ’cause that is a little bit too low. [00:02:00] So with that comment aside, VO2 max is the maximal rate at which your body can take in oxygen from the air and turn it into energy in the form of ATP.

[00:02:12] Brady Holmer: And what that involves is the lungs, your lungs, taking in air from the environment, your heart distributing oxygenated blood, so blood that’s filled with oxygen, to the rest of your body, to your skeletal muscles, to your working muscles during exercise, and then that oxygenated blood, putting that oxygen into your mitochondria, and your mitochondria turning that into energy.

[00:02:32] Brady Holmer: And your maximum rate of oxygen consumption, again, that’s the maximum rate at which you can do that during high-intensity exercise or your maximal level of exertion. So now, you could also hear VO2, which would mean just oxygen consumption, and at any level of exercise, we have a certain oxygen consumption.

[00:02:50] Brady Holmer: VO2 max is just your ceiling on that oxygen consumption. And why should runners care about it? Well, it is one of the pillars of endurance performance. So we’ve been [00:03:00] talking about VO2 max, it’s, I use we in the royal we sense, but we’ve been talking about VO2 max for Actually over a century. It was discovered more than 100 years ago, actually, this concept, this idea of VO2 max, and it’s one of the pillars of endurance performance.

[00:03:15] Brady Holmer: So Dr. Michael Joyner, exercise physiologist, kind of like a legend in this area, several decades ago at this point proposed that, you know, endurance performance, you’re limited by three things. VO2 max, your lactate threshold, and the kind of percentage of your lactate threshold that you can hold. So VO2 max is one of those pillars.

[00:03:34] Brady Holmer: All runners should care about it. It is not the only thing that determines your endurance performance, but it is certainly, um, one of the most important factors for an endurance athlete. 

[00:03:43] Daren DLake: All right, a lot to unpack there. So this is a masterclass, so I’m actually gonna go in. What’s the difference between the watch and the actual test where you have the mask on, you’re on the treadmill, and they run you to exhaustion?

[00:03:53] Brady Holmer: Yeah, sure. So the difference is that one is a, a, is an estimate of your VO2 max, or a prediction, [00:04:00] and then the other is actually a measure of your VO2 max. So when you get on a treadmill, you put on one of those masks that you’ve seen probably, you know, somebody like Lance Armstrong or LeBron James in like a Nike commercial or something like that.

[00:04:10] Brady Holmer: Maybe you’ve done one yourself, but yeah, you put on a mask, get on the treadmill. That test is directly measuring your oxygen consumption because we can basically measure, if you put on a mask, how much, you know, oxygen you are taking in and how much CO2 you are breathing out. But basically, you can estimate or calculate how much oxygen somebody is using during exercise, and you’re measuring it.

[00:04:32] Brady Holmer: It’s called, it’s called indirect calorimetry, is actually the, the formal way, uh, that that is defined. Your watch, on the other hand, is an estimate of your VO2 max, and I would say, I would say it’s more accurately a prediction than an estimate because what your watch is doing is basically using a bunch of data that’s been collected on a bunch of people over a long period of time, put into this database, and then it has an algorithm that basically uses your heart rate at a certain running speed or a [00:05:00] certain power output on the bike, factors in your age and your sex and your weight, and then will give you an estimate of your VO2 max based on that.

[00:05:08] Brady Holmer: But really what they’re using is heart rate and running speed, and then it’s saying, “Hey, this is your estimated VO2 max based on your heart rate at this running speed,” or say you’re a cyclist, at this various power output. 

[00:05:20] Daren DLake: If you’re like, “Hey Daren, I wanna use this information right now,” dope. So good.

[00:05:24] Daren DLake: Download my free VO2 Max Booster Plan. It’s a short, clean training block that slots into normal training so you can touch VO2 max without turning your legs into toast for everything else. Could show up for more workouts, show up for your life, and you’re not tired all the time. Get it at the QR code here, link below, or in your show notes.

[00:05:42] Daren DLake: And if you grab my free training plan in the description, you’ll also get signed up to Brady’s Run Long, Run Healthy newsletter. Back to the episode. Yeah, and with the, with the watch, it’s interesting ’cause the watch for me, it does go up and down. I had the VO2 max test done. Um, I’ve had it done twice. It was eight years ago, [00:06:00] and then last year.

[00:06:02] Daren DLake: Um- You, you said something interesting in an interview with Down to Health where you were like, “Do you need to get it? Does everyone need to get it?” And I used to be like, “I don’t need to get the VO2 max test done.” Mm. And that was why I got it done. Eight years ago, I went really deep, uh, down, deep down the rabbit hole of health and fitness, and I was like, “You know what?

[00:06:19] Daren DLake: Let me find out my VO2 max.” And I got it, and then I was like, eh, it was an average number. I think it was 56, 57. I wasn’t even, like, trained well. And then I ended up training my VO2 max really well over the last seven, eight years. Uh, got on the treadmill after seven, eight years, and it was, like, a 55. And I’m like, what?

[00:06:34] Daren DLake: I was like, “I’m way more fitter than I was eight years ago.” And then it was like, well, there’s a million factors w- the way the testing protocol was. It was just all these things, and I was just so mad at it. Mm. And then I’m like, but if you, like, look at the Vdot, which we’ll get into, you look at, like, all these other things, like, my running economy is so high, it, like, if you were to correlate and estimate my VO2 max based on non-mask wearing, like, I have, like, a 65, 69 VO2 max, [00:07:00] quote-unquote.

[00:07:00] Daren DLake: Th- my performance is higher than my actual number, which is where I think it gets confusing for a lot of people, uh, because if it’s lower, obviously, then… Do you have anything to say to that? Well- ‘Cause we can move on to the next part. Well, 

[00:07:10] Brady Holmer: yeah, yeah. So, I, I’d ask you a question. So when you, when you first took the test and then the second time you took the test, were you, were you a better runner the second time you took the test?

[00:07:19] Brady Holmer: Were you better, was your performance better? 

[00:07:21] Daren DLake: Yes. 

[00:07:21] Brady Holmer: Eight years after? Okay. 

[00:07:22] Daren DLake: Yes. 

[00:07:23] Brady Holmer: So what does that tell me? So let’s assume, let’s assume that your VO2 max actually didn’t change, then you became a better runner. So what that tells me is that VO2 max, it’s important, but it’s not the only thing that’s making you a better runner, right?

[00:07:36] Brady Holmer: So you said you’re a more economical runner. Okay. Well, if you have a VO2 max of 55, and then 10 years later you have a VO2 max of 55, you improved your running economy, so you can run faster even if your VO2 max hasn’t changed, ’cause you’re a more economical runner. I’ll use myself as an example, too, here.

[00:07:52] Brady Holmer: So when I was 16 years old, I, um, I was running a track race and I passed out, and so I had to go get a stress test [00:08:00] i- at a children’s hospital, ’cause they wanted to check if something was wrong with my heart. And I did that stress test, and they actually did a VO2 max test during that. So I had a EKG hooked up, I had the mask all hooked up.

[00:08:10] Brady Holmer: I scored a 73 on that test, so my VO2 max was a 73, and this was when I was 16 years old. I would wager my VO2 max is a little bit higher now, but maybe not much, but I’m way better of a runner now than I was, ’cause I’m twice as old now. My VO2 max maybe is, I might be sitting somewhere now between 75 and 80, but let’s just assume it’s close to what it was when I was 16.

[00:08:33] Brady Holmer: I’m still a much better runner. So there are a lot of factors that go into making you a better runner than just improving your VO2 max. Because a lot of the time, if you start out, I mean, you said you got a 56, that’s, that’s really good VO2 max. I mean, maybe that’s just your max. Maybe you can never get higher than that, but you’re gonna become a better runner because you’re improving all of these other aspects of, you know, what are important for endurance performance.

[00:08:56] Daren DLake: So everyone uses the car analogy, um, [00:09:00] for the VO2 max thing. Do you think there’s something better out there? 

[00:09:05] Brady Holmer: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think people use the car analogy and they say like, “Oh, VO2 max is kind of like your, your, like, engine for the car.” I mean, I would agree because it’s, you know, if you think of what a car’s engine is, your, your, the engine of your body is sort of your, you know, your heart.

[00:09:19] Brady Holmer: But I don’t know. I, I don’t know if I have a better way to describe it. I think, I think the engine of the car works, but it’s obviously the whole car because, you know, the engine and the cooling system and the, uh, pipes that, you know, obviously I’m, uh, reaching my limits of car knowledge … here with this analogy, but the, you know, the tubes that take the, you know, the gas from the gas tank into the engine and make it work, that’s really a better analogy versus just the engine.

[00:09:45] Brady Holmer: The engine’s, you know, what burns the gas and, and makes the fuel, but obviously if you unpacked a car, you would see a series of pipes, um, and that would be like your blood vessels, basically. And so I think the analogy of a car is good, but let’s just not think of it as [00:10:00] the engine. Let’s think of it as, you know, your entire car because it’s your lungs, your blood vessels, your heart.

[00:10:05] Brady Holmer: So car analogy is great, but it’s just not the, uh, certainly just not the engine of the car that is, uh, playing into the performance of the car. 

[00:10:14] Daren DLake: Yeah. I, I tell runners, ’cause, you know, a lot, runners that I coach, they’ll be like, “Oh, Garmin said my VO2…” I’m like, “Please ignore the Garmin. Please ignore the Garmin.”

[00:10:23] Daren DLake: And the TrainingPeaks, and the TrainingPeaks set my threshold. I’m like, I, like, I like… Look, I love data, I love technology, I love algorithms and AI as much as everyone. I was like, but, like, we have 15 different data points, and your subjective stuff is part of it. Hmm. So I’m always like, this is just one part of the story.

[00:10:37] Daren DLake: But anyway, uh, I tell runners, like, VO2 max is a ceiling, and you never race at a ceiling, but the higher it is, the more room you have to work under it. That’s one thing. Uh, I’ll also, like Steve Magness, um, I’ll give him full credit for this, and he said, “VO2 max is, you know, the engine,” but then he goes in the car and he goes, “Well, what about the tires and the tire pressure and the suspension and the aerodynamics [00:11:00] of the body and, you know, all these different things?”

[00:11:02] Daren DLake: Yep. So that’s where running economy comes in. So then you kind of, you can keep doing the run analogy. I love analogies, so you can keep kind of running 

[00:11:07] Brady Holmer: with that one. Exactly. So, like, yeah, you take a Ferrari engine. Okay, that’s a, you know, a VO2 max of 80, but you put that Ferrari engine inside of a, uh, I don’t know, a Honda Civic body, you know, and it’s not gonna be able to perform at its full capacity.

[00:11:20] Brady Holmer: I think that’s a, it’s a good analogy there. The tires influence the, you know, aerodynamics of the car. All that, all of that is obviously important. 

[00:11:26] Daren DLake: You published research on exogenous ketones, which are bringing, drinking ketones or eating ketones. Endogenous is when it’s produced endogenously. It’s like being in ketosis, uh, which keto, you know, was all the craze, but I love that you’re bringing it back, and you did the research back in 2019, and you’re equating it to endurance sports and running in particular.

[00:11:44] Daren DLake: Um, so for a runner who’s doing hard VO2 max intervals twice a week, even once a week, um, is there any real evidence that ketones help recovery or performance? 

[00:11:53] Brady Holmer: There’s, yeah, there’s a lot of interesting research. So I will clarify one thing. I didn’t, I actually do research on ketones. I wrote a [00:12:00] review article kind of summarizing some of the research on ketones.

[00:12:02] Brady Holmer: It was like a response, kind of more like a, a commentary I guess you would call it in science. So I had a couple colleagues and I, we were like, “Oh, this is an interesting study,” so we basically wrote a commentary on a study. 

[00:12:12] Daren DLake: Okay. 

[00:12:12] Brady Holmer: Um, what they, what they showed in that study was Taking exogenous ketones after exercise and, like, before sleep during this over-training camp basically prevented over-training symptoms.

[00:12:24] Brady Holmer: Now, they were pushing these athletes, they were cyclists, they were pushing them to their limits, but the athletes who took ketones, the cyclists who took ketones throughout the training camp, basically had less over-training symptoms than the athletes who didn’t. But, like, in the r- recent few years, uh, there’s just been some really interesting research, not on…

[00:12:40] Brady Holmer: Research on ketones started off as, like, do these things improve performance? If you take them beforehand, do they help you, like, exercise longer or harder? That hasn’t really panned out. There’s still some interesting research there, but where a lot of it right now is, is for recovery. So if you do hard workout, a long run, and you take these ketones afterwards, there was a recent study showing if you take them after a [00:13:00] workout, pretty high dose, I think they took 20 to 30 grams of them, which is, like, several shots, which, you know, again, a lot of people aren’t, you know, cost-effectiveness and stuff like that, but I think there’s still a practical side there.

[00:13:11] Brady Holmer: You take them after workouts, and they showed improvements in VO2 max, improvements in, uh, like, red blood cell count, your hematocrit, um, a lot of these other performance markers. So really got me excited kind of about the research. I use ketones. At this point, I started using them just, like, once or twice a week, but it’s more like three or four times a week now.

[00:13:28] Brady Holmer: I take them after hard workouts or long runs. But what I would recommend to runners, if you’re interested in, say, trying something like a Ketone-IQ, or there are other brands out there, but, you know, I recommend Ketone-IQ. It’s the one I, that I use. After a hard workout is when you should probably use it, and I think do it after a hard workout, take it with your carbs, take it with your protein.

[00:13:46] Brady Holmer: There’s a lot of kind of evidence that they interact and sort of just allow you to kind of upgrade your adaptations to that workout more than you would if you just said, “Take carbs and protein.” Um, I’ve seen some benefits myself, and that’s why I use them after a workout, so yeah, I think it’s [00:14:00] something interesting to try for runners.

[00:14:01] Brady Holmer: I mean, it’s almost like a hack for your VO2 max. Like, you know, m- n- don’t, don’t have to do extra training, but I can sort of take this supplement after my workout and maybe get a slight benefit. I think it’s, you know, probably worth it for at least some runners to try, so. 

[00:14:15] Daren DLake: Yeah, th- this is really cool, um, information because, you know, if…

[00:14:20] Daren DLake: think back to ketosis days, back when keto was hot in the, the mid- Mm-hmm … 2015s, and everyone was taking them as an energy source, you know? It was like, oh, I’m gonna be, uh, you know, high fat, low carb, and then I’ll be running, you know, basically on no carbs or very low carbs, and then I’ll get fat adapted.

[00:14:38] Daren DLake: But this is, like, exact opposite or, you know, this is almost like tangential, like stepping all the way over here. It’s like, no, it’s recovery is where we’re getting the benefits. So I, I, I love that because this, this feels a bit more, uh, I know science is not on feelings, but this feels a bit more, like, practical for a runner, ’cause you’re saying eat carbs, eat protein.

[00:14:55] Daren DLake: Like- Yeah … don’t go low carb, and you know, this is just, uh, this is an added supplement benefit on [00:15:00] top of, you know, your normal diet and your normal training. I love that. 

[00:15:03] Brady Holmer: Yeah, that’s the benefit. You can take it, you should take it, you know, like with carbs. You don’t, you don’t have to alter your diet, you don’t have to fast, you don’t have to go low carb, keto.

[00:15:12] Brady Holmer: You basically just take them on top of whatever you’re doing. So I think that’s where, yes, I mean, the practical nature is that for a lot of runners who, you’re not gonna do a keto diet, it’s not gonna help, it’s not gonna help your running. There’s plenty of evidence to show that right now. You know, you’re gonna get worse probably if you, if you go keto, you know?

[00:15:25] Brady Holmer: Sorry to all the keto, uh- … advocates out there, but that’s just, that’s just how it is. 

[00:15:30] Daren DLake: Oh, the, the hate I get every time I’m like, “Pl- please eat carbs, runners and marathoners.” Please, please. And they’re like, “I’ve done it fasted. I’ve done a marathon fasted, or I’m,” blah, blah. I’m like, “Did you perform your best, though?”

[00:15:40] Daren DLake: Like, did, like- Yeah, certainly not. Yeah … I- I’m sure you did it. I could do it. I could do it if my life depended on it. Mm-hmm. And I could probably do it, you know, but like, will I recover well? Will I not feel like trash? Like, will I run my best time? Like, like no one’s thinking about it. Right. And it’s like, you can do it, but should you, is how I always go with, with, uh, with the whole fasted stuff.

[00:15:55] Daren DLake: What’s the difference between threshold and VO2 max? And [00:16:00] this, ’cause I’m sure people hear about threshold runs, tempo runs, and b- because you’re a runner, I love that you’re a runner, and you’re speaking straight to VO2 max. Um, yeah, please, ’cause I know they sit, if you wanna … Feel free to put this in the framework of the five-zone heart rate system also, because I know VO2 max for me, quote-unquote, is usually low zone four, and I had a lactate threshold test done when I had the VO2 max test done.

[00:16:22] Daren DLake: So yeah, tell me, if you wanna break it down as simple or as complex as you want, threshold VO2 max in any way you want. 

[00:16:28] Brady Holmer: Yeah, for sure. I mean, th- threshold is generally going to be a lower intensity than VO2 max for most people. I mean, I would, I would place that threshold, you know, for a lot of people it’s gonna be like high zone three, low zone four, or somewhere within that like zone three.

[00:16:40] Brady Holmer: Whereas VO2 max, I mean, generally you’re gonna consider that, you know, it’s, it’s zone five for, for most people because it’s your, it’s your max, you know? You’re gonna be able to do… If you’re doing VO2 max intervals, those intervals are gonna be like four to five minutes maybe in duration. And whereas if you’re gonna do a threshold, you know, you could do a threshold run, 10 minutes intervals basically.

[00:16:57] Brady Holmer: Um, that’s kind of if you were thinking about how long can I [00:17:00] like hold this pace, that’s how you would, uh, consider those. So VO2 max generally is going to be higher than threshold pace. Uh, the fitter you get though, you know, the closer that your threshold pace is going to probably get to your VO2 max. So if you start off and you’re generally unfit, your threshold is gonna be, you know, maybe in terms of like your pace or the intensity at like your heart rate max, it’s gonna be a little bit further away from your VO2 max.

[00:17:23] Brady Holmer: But as you get fitter, those are probably going to be a little bit closer. Generally, great endurance athletes, they are able to run at a high percentage of their VO2 max for a long time, so their threshold, their lactate threshold is pretty high. That’s why you see a lot of these runners, you know, like these runners who are breaking the two-hour marathon.

[00:17:41] Brady Holmer: We just had that done obviously when, you know, a couple weeks ago or last weekend, I guess. You know, uh, they’ve tested guys like Eliud Kipchoge, and they can basically run at like 85 to 90% of, you know, their max for two hours for the duration of a marathon. So their threshold and [00:18:00] their VO2 max are like pretty, pretty close together.

[00:18:02] Daren DLake: Oh, okay. Got it. Yeah, ’cause my threshold is so much… It’s close, but it’s further away. Yeah. And I’m just a, a, I’m not a weird runner, but I, I tell people, I always laugh, I’m like, “I shouldn’t be distance running.” Like I’m very much a 400, 800 runner back when I ran on the track. That’s, uh, one lap around the track for you non-track people.

[00:18:18] Daren DLake: To actually improve VO2 max, if you’re not training specifically at that VO2 max zone, like you’re too un- uh, too far under or like let’s say, all right, my VO2 max zone is heart rate is 168 to 174 heart rate. Mm-hmm. Let’s say I’m doing 166. That really won’t… W- that will improve my, my VO2 max? That won’t improve my VO2 max?

[00:18:40] Daren DLake: Like it’s not as effective? 

[00:18:43] Brady Holmer: Yeah, it will. I think we get sometimes lost, uh, a little bit too much lost in, like, the details here where it’s like, “Oh, 168 versus, uh, uh, 166 versus 168 heart rate. Well, I’m officially not in zone three if I’m at 166 versus 168.” Really, like, I think it’s best to think of [00:19:00] physiology as a spectrum versus these very discrete zones, and I think sometimes when we talk about it, it’s like, oh, I’m…

[00:19:06] Brady Holmer: Like, w- I think a good, good way to think about it is like you’re, when you talk about fat burning versus carb burning, like, sometimes I think we talk about it in terms of, oh, we’re either, I’m either fat burning or I’m carb burning during a, during a run. Well, it’s like, no, you’re w- sliding along this spectrum of percentage fat versus carbs burned.

[00:19:22] Brady Holmer: I think the same goes with, like, am I doing VO2 max work or not? I mean, if you’re doing w- working at an intensity that is close to your heart rate, that would approximate, like, your VO2 max or, you know, 85, 90% of your VO2 max, yes, you’re doing VO2 max work. And when we, you know, I’m sure we’ll get into this a little bit more, but it’s like, what, what kind of training improves VO2 max?

[00:19:42] Brady Holmer: I mean, either directly or indirectly, any training technically will improve your VO2 max. But obviously, doing VO2 max intervals is targeting your VO2 max. You have to w- exercise at your ceiling to improve your ceiling. You know, you’re not gonna get stronger at a one repetition maximum if you don’t [00:20:00] occasionally lift weight that is close to your one repetition maximum, right?

[00:20:02] Brady Holmer: I mean, you’re not just gonna do, like, 10-pound dumbbell curls and be able to then, you know, bench press twice your body weight in, like, a month. It’s, that’s not really how it works. Same thing, same thing with running, I think. But g- back to your question about, like, you know, the heart rate and stressing about, like, 168 versus 166.

[00:20:18] Brady Holmer: Again, if you’re anywhere around that, just given the fluctuations again and that, like, the heart rate from day to day, a lot of things influence it. So at one speed, you know, I’m sure you’ve experienced this, if you go out on a run, if you’re maybe a little more stressed, a little underslept, the same run can produce a widely different heart rate, so those things always have to be considered.

[00:20:36] Brady Holmer: And again, you know, back to your, how do you, if people don’t know their maximum heart rate, if they’re trying to calculate how they’re gonna run at their VO2 max. G- you gotta figure it out, I think, for yourself. Do not rely on that 220 minus age sort of, uh, prediction. I mean, it’s just, there’s so much variability when it comes to, like, heart rate.

[00:20:53] Brady Holmer: You really at least have to do, at least go out and do, like, an all-out effort to try to get as close to it as you can. Um, [00:21:00] just don’t say, “Oh, it’s 220 minus my age,” because that just, um, it really just doesn’t work that well for everybody 

[00:21:05] Daren DLake: Yeah, the 220 thank you for that. The 220 minus age, uh, it always bothered me.

[00:21:10] Daren DLake: Um- Mm-hmm … but once I got into, like, exercise science, I’m definitely not an expert, you know, on, on your level. Um, but I got into it, and once I realized my heart rate was just so weird compared to ev- I have a, a slightly higher resting, um, even when I’m super fit, it’s just slightly higher than most normal people that are, you know, uh, training at the level I train.

[00:21:28] Daren DLake: And then I have a really high max for my age. I’m 44, my max is 197, 198. And- 

[00:21:33] Brady Holmer: Wow Yeah Yeah, that’s insane. Like, I was gonna ask because, I mean, you told- you said what, you’re 44 years old? Yeah. So theoretically it would be 176. Yeah. I mean, if you, if you were using… Think about that. If you were using the 220 minus age and saying, “My max heart rate is, uh, 176,” you would be performing your intervals way too easy.

[00:21:52] Brady Holmer: Like, you would be- Yeah … like, “Oh, I’m in, I’m in zone three or zone two,” and it’s like, no, you would be you know, you’d be in zone one or something like that when you’re exercising. So [00:22:00] again, I think, I think you’re an extreme example of that, for sure. And for me, it ge- it generally tends to work out, but, like, you know, I’m…

[00:22:07] Brady Holmer: So I’m gonna be 33, so if you were to take the 220 kind of minus age thing, 187, 188 would be my max. My real max is, like, 185, something like that. So it’s about right for me, but I’ve always had a very low maximal heart rate. I’ve never been able to get my heart rate, I’ve never seen a number above 190, I think.

[00:22:25] Brady Holmer: I’ve never been able to get it up. So very low resting, very low max, but there’s still kind of this wide gap between those two. Um, so yeah, I mean, you’re the perfect example. It’s like your, your exercise prescription would be totally inadequate for any type of training if you were to use that 220 minus age.

[00:22:42] Daren DLake: Back to heart rate and, uh, speed, because this is something that Jack Daniels talks about. Critical power, there we go. 

[00:22:51] Brady Holmer: Critical power, yep. 

[00:22:52] Daren DLake: Yeah, and I was like, “Wait, what is critical power?” And I’m like, again, I’m like, I’ve, I know a lot. It’s like there’s a new, there’s a new zone now called critical [00:23:00] power, and then it’s like, oh, I was like, this is kinda like VVO2, and then, uh, s- so it’s basically like a FTP.

[00:23:07] Daren DLake: Like, I know if it’s just, if you’re a cyclist, there’s a FTP test that you do. Mm-hmm. Do you need to run at a certain speed to improve VO2 max at optimally? Um, or can you just, like, slam zone four? And then the way I like to say it, and feel free to correct this, is the heart rate confirms it at the end of the interval.

[00:23:26] Daren DLake: Because let’s say you’re super unfit and you’re running at VO2 max just because you have cardiac drift. Like, is that really improving VO2 max? I’d, I’d love for you to- Chime in on that. 

[00:23:37] Brady Holmer: Yeah, no, lot of good, lot of good questions there. So I would say speed, I don’t think it’s best to think in terms of speed if we’re thinking about improving VO2 max, just because think about how much influence is speed.

[00:23:50] Brady Holmer: You know? It’s- it’s the terrain that you’re in, it could be the humidity you’re exercising in. If you’re running on a treadmill and you decide to go steeper, obviously you’re gonna be going slow, but you can do VO2 max. I [00:24:00] mean, when you do a VO2 max test, actually, you’re often not gonna be running at a very fast speed.

[00:24:05] Brady Holmer: It’s just gonna be, like, on a incline that’s very, very steep. So I think, I think thinking in terms of probably power output or- or obviously effort is just the best way to think about it. So I mean, yeah, if your heart rate is in zone four or zone five, then your oxygen consumption is probably at a level that is gonna improve your VO2 max, like 90% or above of your VO2 max.

[00:24:25] Brady Holmer: If- if your heart rate’s there, then the effort’s there, and you’re probably improving your VO2 max. Do I think that just going out and slamming a zone four run, uh, non-strategically is the best way to do it? Probably not. But your friend who’s going out there and just like, “I’m gonna run as hard as I can for three hours,” I mean, yeah, he’s probably improving his VO2 max.

[00:24:43] Brady Holmer: But that’s not, that’s not the most systematic way to- to go about it, I would say. You wanna do it a little more smart, uh, in a more smart, maybe strategic manner than that. But yeah, so I don’t, I don’t think speed is the best way. Obviously, so if you’re training for a ma- training for a race, you wanna train [00:25:00] to be running at a certain speed.

[00:25:01] Brady Holmer: So I mean, in that case, yes, you wanna train at a certain speed, but I think then we’re thinking about two different goals. ‘Cause if you’re training for a marathon, you’re training to run faster at that speed or, uh, you know, at that speed at a lower heart rate. You’re- you’re not necessarily as concerned about your VO2 max.

[00:25:15] Brady Holmer: So let’s just, like, isolate VO2 max. I would say throw speed kind of out the window. I think thinking about, like you said, critical power, very interesting concept. Um, just thinking about in terms of power output is smart, but again, most runners aren’t measuring their power. So effort, really, that’s why we, that’s why we go on heart rate kind of, because, you know, your heart rate’s gonna correlate to- to your effort.

[00:25:35] Brady Holmer: So I would say effort determines it more than speed. Again, many things can influence speed. So you can do treadmill strides and put it on a grade. You’re gonna be going slow, but you could arguably get a better VO2 max workout doing incline intervals versus flat intervals, even if you’re going, um, slower.

[00:25:51] Brady Holmer: So hopefully, hopefully, that answers your question. 

[00:25:53] Daren DLake: So here’s, here’s a random fun one. So your book started as, your book VO2 Max Essentials, is that the correct title? I don’t wanna get that- Yep, correct … VO2 Max Essentials, [00:26:00] yep, uh, which you can get anywhere. This was not sponsored by you, but, uh, anyone that’s listening, highly recommend it.

[00:26:05] Daren DLake: It is a very fun read. Um, you know, at first I thought it was gonna be really scientific ’cause Brady, he is a sports scientist, exercise scientist, uh, but it actually is very, very accessible, and he talks about way more stuff than just the number in there. So if someone’s watching right now, we’re gonna end this first section here and, uh, kind of go through the next few sections a bit faster.

[00:26:22] Daren DLake: Mm-hmm. Um, but if someone’s watching And wants to know their actual VO2 max without going to a lab, what, what do they do? Actionable, I love something that someone can do, take away, get away from the theoretical stuff. 

[00:26:34] Brady Holmer: Yeah, absolutely. Best thing people can do is go and do what is called the, what is known as the Cooper test.

[00:26:38] Brady Holmer: It’s a 12-minute test, and basically you are just gonna go and run for 12 minutes, base- a- as hard as you can, run for 12 minutes. Just calculate the distance that it took you. I mean, you got a GPS watch, so start it, run for 12 minutes, stop it, calculate your distance, and then just go to an online calculator, search Cooper test, uh, calculator, put in your time, and it’ll give you an estimate.

[00:26:58] Brady Holmer: I say that’s the best [00:27:00] one because there’s mounds of data on it, so the algorithm is really, really well fine-tuned, ’cause you have all this data from not only research studies, but just, like, humans, like, people putting in their, their data from it as well. So there’s, like, a huge database for this Cooper test, and it’s one of the best, I would say the b- most established field test of VO2 max.

[00:27:19] Brady Holmer: So the Cooper 12-minute test, if people want to know their VO2 max test, I would go and… Or know their VO2 max, I would go and do the Cooper test. Your watch might even have, like, a built-in feature for it, um, if you go and do, like, a… You can actually, like, do a test and it might just calculate it for you. 

[00:27:33] Daren DLake: Ah, cool.

[00:27:33] Daren DLake: Didn’t know that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, ’cause I know Garmins have the lactate threshold field test, I’m sure. Mm-hmm. If you have Coros, ’cause Coros is a big competitor to Garmin, uh- 

[00:27:42] Brady Holmer: Yep … 

[00:27:43] Daren DLake: yeah, I’m sure it has that, too. But, uh, yeah, highly suggest that. How about doing the mile? Do you think that’s, that’s- 

[00:27:49] Brady Holmer: I, I think, I think that the mile is good, and why I say it’s not the best is just because we don’t, we don’t have as much data on that, so you’re not maybe gonna get as accurate, like, uh, if you go to an, a mile calculator, an [00:28:00] estimate based on your mile time, it’s just not gonna be as accurate as that 12-minute test, I think.

[00:28:04] Brady Holmer: And, and the mile also has a slightly more, I would call it anaerobic component to it than the 12-minute test does. Most people are gonna cover, you know, a lot more distance in 12 than they would with a mile. So I would say the 12-minute is gonna give you a little bit better of a, an estimate. But yes, if you want to go run a mile, that, that works, too, I guess.

[00:28:23] Daren DLake: Okay. You c- you could do both, people. Like – You 

[00:28:26] Brady Holmer: could do both, right … it’s 12, it’s 

[00:28:26] Daren DLake: 12 minutes versus a mile. Like, y- you could fit that in. 

[00:28:28] Brady Holmer: You could… Well, yeah, g- you could, if you wanted to do your mi- g- run the 12-minute test, and you can see what your fastest mile during that 12-minute test is- … and then keep on doing the 12-minute test so you get a two for one.

[00:28:38] Daren DLake: Here we go to section two, the longevity angle. Um, I, I think this is the most important, and, like, again, we, we run to live. It’s a bit generic, but we, we, we run to live. We don’t live to run, unless you’re pro getting paid millions of dollars. So the whole running is to stay healthy, and the minute running either- Once running becomes unhealthy, conversation for another day, you’re doing [00:29:00] 10 marathons a year, 12 marathons a year, uh, you have now entered the diminishing returns point, and now running is very unhealthy, and it will cause way more damage to you, um, which I know you’ve written about brain function with, uh, marathon.

[00:29:13] Daren DLake: You just released that- Mm … um, which is really, really interesting. So question is, Kipchoge needed a VO2 of 77 just to hold a marathon pace, I think. That’s what you said in the book. Um, and that wasn’t even his max. Why’d you pivot the whole book towards longevity in general? 

[00:29:30] Brady Holmer: Yeah, right. So I guess, you know, with the Kipchoge thing, yeah, it’s basically, you know, we talked about VO2 versus VO2 max earlier.

[00:29:36] Brady Holmer: So VO2 is just like, this is the oxygen consumption it takes to run a marathon at that, so that just goes to show you, well, if you wanna run a marathon in under two hours, your max has to be way higher than your, your ceiling has to be much higher than, you can’t hold your ceiling for two hours, so your ceiling has to be higher than the two hours.

[00:29:53] Brady Holmer: So I pivoted the book towards longevity because, one, I mean, a lot has just been covered on [00:30:00] VO2 max and performance. Not to say that everything has been covered, and there are obviously always new angles, but, you know, we’ve known that VO2 max is important for endurance performance for centuries, and I’m not the first person to sort of start talking about that.

[00:30:12] Brady Holmer: But I do feel like I at least helped contribute to some of the conversation about, you know, VO2 max and longevity. That’s kind of where the new stuff is, and I think why VO2 max has become more popular because let’s face it, everybody watching this masterclass may be a runner, may be an endurance athlete, but not everybody is.

[00:30:29] Brady Holmer: And I think that’s why it gained such popularity because whether you are a weightlifter, whether you’re just somebody who likes doing Pilates or yoga, like VO2 max matters, and everybody realized, oh, this is an important biomarker of longevity. And I’m very interested in just longevity in general, and I think that the ability to tie these two together really hit my sweet spot.

[00:30:49] Brady Holmer: I was like, oh, well, I love endurance athletics. I love this angle of like health span and longevity, and now I get to talk about the two together, and there was some really interesting data on it as well that I, that I wanted to [00:31:00] cover. So that’s kinda why the book pretty much focused… I would say it focuses more on the longevity health span angle than really any sort of like endurance exercise performance angle.

[00:31:10] Daren DLake: The decline in chapter two, um, the decline chart. You, you had a chart in chapter two. Mm-hmm. VO2 max drops no matter what, but trained people at 60 years old still beat sedentary people at 30. Is that the whole point? Like raising up the, the floor? 

[00:31:25] Brady Holmer: Yeah, pretty much. So I mean, you know, and I hate to be one of those, and I, you know, I s- I’ve said this often and it’s like we see that, uh, muscle mass declines with age, VO2 max declines with age, and it’s all inevitable.

[00:31:36] Brady Holmer: On the population average, yes, that, that is true. VO2 max just tends to decline. Now, does that mean at every single age or for everybody you’re gonna get a lower VO2 max as you age? Well, no, because some people start marathon running at 40, and obviously they’re probably gonna improve their VO2 max. But what this is kind of saying is if you start exercising in your 20s and you’re pretty fit, even if you continue to train, kind of once you hit [00:32:00] 40 to 50, you’re gonna start to see that VO2 max creep down.

[00:32:03] Brady Holmer: It might not be the massive 10% per decade that is just the population average, but it, it’s gonna drift down. So let’s assume that to be true. Let’s assume it declines with age, then yes. You want to start with the highest possible ceiling that you can so that when it starts to drop, you’re basically never going to reach what I refer to as like this frailty threshold, essentially, where if your VO2 max drops below a certain level, which it’s pretty known, it’s, it’s somewhere like between 15 and 20 mLs per kg per minute.

[00:32:35] Brady Holmer: Once you drop below that, basically, uh, d- like, daily life just becomes hard because it, it takes a certain level, like we talked about the two-hour marathon. It takes a certain level of oxygen consumption to carry in groceries from the grocery store or walk up the stairs to your bedroom. And if you have a VO2 max of 15, like, life just becomes hard.

[00:32:54] Brady Holmer: Basically, everything you do becomes a VO2 max effort. So think about that Bruce protocol you were doing, Daren. It’s [00:33:00] like y- when you walk and get out of bed and go downstairs, like, make your toast and get a banana, it’s like that’s a VO2 max effort because you’re, you’re so physically unfit. Now, a lot of people don’t reach that, but some people do, and a lot of people do, and once you reach that, you’re n- you’re kind of like frail.

[00:33:14] Brady Holmer: You’d be considered frail. So the longer that you can hold off that decline and reaching that threshold, the better, and that just means getting yourself to this highest ceiling that you can before it stop- starts to decline. Again, I think we can keep drawing these analogies with, like, muscle mass, but it’s like, let’s assume muscle mass is gonna decline with everybody in age.

[00:33:32] Brady Holmer: You wanna basically build up that investment account until you’re 40 or 50 to carry you into older age. Um, so yeah, starting with the highest level and, you know, you referred to the graph, and it’s basically you start with, you have these, you know, two people. You have the person who exercised early, you have the person who didn’t.

[00:33:50] Brady Holmer: They have the same trajectory, but look, the person who exercised started at a much higher level. So they’re on the same trajectory downwards, but if you start at that higher [00:34:00] level, you’re much better off than the person who didn’t exercise and then started to decline 

[00:34:06] Daren DLake: Yeah, that’s… When you put it like that, man, I was just like, “Oh, wow.”

[00:34:09] Daren DLake: And, uh, I ended up sending it to a friend of mine who, um, you know, he’s, he’s, he’s fit and healthy. He’s the same age as me. Um, but he d- he’s avoided anything endurance based ’cause he, you know, he, he claimed, “Oh, I’m not gonna run. It’s bad for my knees.” He claimed that even though he used to run track. Uh, he did play basketball with me, but we all hit 20s, 30s, and either you keep running or you don’t.

[00:34:28] Daren DLake: And it’s like- … if you have no reason to run, people, you know, cycle or whatever, but he walks a lot. And I was like, “Hey, man. Look, I don’t know what your VO2 max is, da, da, da, but I’ve been reading this book. I’m gonna have this guy Brady on. Hey…” Uh, and the Down to Health podcast that you did was phenomenal.

[00:34:43] Daren DLake: It was, like, so, like, it was perfect ’cause it wasn’t running specific. Obviously, if I send him this episode, he’d be like, “Bro, you’re talking about running. I don’t care.” Um, but it was so much more for, like, general health and wellness, and I sent it to him, and he was like, “Dude, man, okay. All right,” you know?

[00:34:57] Daren DLake: And I think his VO2 max is, like, 44 on his, um, Apple [00:35:00] Watch. And he’s like, “Yeah, it’s 44.” And then I was like… He’s like, “What’s yours?” And I’m like, “Look, man, my watch says 69, but, like, I’m actually 55.” And he was like, “69?” His head exploded. And I was like, “Dude, like, who cares about, like, the watch stuff?” I’m like, “What can you do?”

[00:35:11] Daren DLake: Like, like, “Let’s do some… Let’s get you up to four-by-four intervals.” Yeah. And he actually took it seriously. He was like, “Yeah, man, the four-by-four protocol, I’m gonna do that on the bike or the rower.” And I was like, “I don’t care how you do it, man.” So, uh, so yeah, I just was like, “Hey, you got three kids. Like, you need to…

[00:35:24] Daren DLake: Like, let’s not… Let’s keep it high when you hit 60, 70, and then you can drop off.” Um, and this is kind of something, like, like you were just talking about the frailty thing and then not being able to do stuff. Like, when… And I know When, uh, old people, older people, they break their hip, I know that, um, it’s not VO2 max based.

[00:35:44] Daren DLake: Mm. But I’m sure there’s correlation. Uh , but you know, like mobility and obviously strength- Mm … all these other things is why they break their hip. But it’s actually not breaking their hip what kills them, it’s actually going to hospital, not being fit enough, not having a high enough VO2 max to handle being in the hospital, surgery, random stuff that [00:36:00] happens, and then they like die of like second and third order effects.

[00:36:03] Daren DLake: Like in the… Crazy. And I’m sure you know, you, you know exact about this. Um, but it’s- 

[00:36:07] Brady Holmer: Yeah. And I mean, essentially what happens then is like, okay, and I think it’s also what’s important to point out is like, you know, when you see all the graphs like the one that I put in my book or anything with, with muscle mass or with brain health or whatever, all of these graphs basically are like, oh, from 50 to 60, it’s like this linear decline.

[00:36:23] Brady Holmer: That’s not really how it works. If you plotted it, yes, it looks like you’re just declining like at the same rate. But what happens is you have these periods of, and this isn’t my term, so I won’t take credit for it, but it’s in some of the research has referred to it as a catabolic crisis, which I really like.

[00:36:40] Brady Holmer: But it basically refers to the idea that, like you mentioned, okay, let’s say you’re 60 years old, you fall, you break your hip, you’re in a hospital bed for three weeks. You are… Y- The, the amount that you can detrain by s- s- laying in a bed for three weeks is insane. Like, you will just lose everything. Three weeks, three to four weeks just laying in a bed is literally worse than like [00:37:00] a couple decades of aging in terms of how that’ll affect your VO2 max.

[00:37:03] Brady Holmer: And that’s not just coming from me, that’s coming from some of these studies done by Dr. Benjamin Levine called the Dallas Bedrest Studies. They basically had these young guys lay in a bed for like a month, and they lost like 50% or something of their VO2 max. You just get unfit as heck. So what happens to these people, they break a hip, they’re in a hospital bed, they lose everything.

[00:37:23] Brady Holmer: And then if you’re 50, you’re 60, you’re 70 years old, you’re not, you’re not coming back from that. You’re not gonna get out of that hospital and go do rehab and go and get your VO2 max and your muscle mass back up. So basically you’re like coasting along, you break your hip, you’re in a hospital bed, boop, you drop down rapidly.

[00:37:39] Brady Holmer: You coast along a little bit more. Maybe you are sick, COVID, you get COVID for like a month. Your fitness pl- drops again. So that’s kind of… It’s kind of like this staggered drop in like fitness versus… And we all experience that. You don’t have to be old to experience that, right? So you go on a vacation, you go on your honeymoon for two weeks, you get unfit.

[00:37:58] Brady Holmer: But what most of us can do is [00:38:00] train a little bit harder when we get back, right? Get more fit, and then, you know, you’re gonna maybe drop a little bit. So we go through these little plateaus. That’s like what training is. But when you’re older, you just, you just don’t come back from that, one, ’cause it’s harder to gain fitness.

[00:38:12] Brady Holmer: Um, but two is it’s just like You know, people are not as motivated to, to exercise when you’re that old. And when you become weak, it’s just, uh, it’s hard to gain that fitness back, if not impossible. 

[00:38:23] Daren DLake: Yeah, it’s the, it’s the habit and, like, you know, it’s kind of like the identity. 

[00:38:26] Brady Holmer: Don’t get hurt. Don’t get hurt, don’t get sick.

[00:38:28] Brady Holmer: That’s, like, the, the key, part of the key to longevity, I think. 

[00:38:31] Daren DLake: Your research at UF was on sleep and blood vessel function. One night of no sleep and your blood vessels stop working as well. Does bad sleep tank your VO2 max? 

[00:38:41] Brady Holmer: Yeah, so in the, in the indirect sense. So obviously, like, you don’t, you aren’t gonna get less fit if you lose a couple nights of sleep.

[00:38:47] Brady Holmer: So your, your VO2 max may be the same, but your ability to, um, express that VO2 max, I guess how I’ll put it, will be diminished because, yes, I mean, your blood vessel function, you know, your ability to get [00:39:00] blood to your muscles to oxygenate the muscles and to then produce energy is gonna be impaired if your blood vessel function suffers.

[00:39:06] Brady Holmer: So yes, it will indirectly, like, if you took a VO2 max test after a night of no sleep, your VO2 max is gonna be worse than it would be if you, uh, you know, had a night of full sleep. And I think that just goes, extends across performance. You know, if generally after a poor night of sleep, like, you’re gonna have worse performance.

[00:39:23] Brady Holmer: I do think the blood vessel function is, is certainly one part of it. Obviously, the motivation and just sort of the tiredness is gonna play into that as well, but certainly, you know, if you can’t dilate your blood vessels and widen your blood vessels to get the blood to your working muscles, you’re not gonna have as much, you know, capacity to exercise.

[00:39:38] Brady Holmer: So definitely gonna play a role there. So it would, yes, lower your VO2 max if you don’t get enough sleep. Acutely and chronically, of course, as well. So get enough sleep. Hopefully everybody knows that by now in 2026. 

[00:39:51] Daren DLake: Yeah. Oh, the, the, when I talk about sleep, oh, the people, “I can’t get it. There’s no way I can get more than six hours.”

[00:39:56] Daren DLake: Mm-hmm. I’m like, “I mean, your life literally depends on it. [00:40:00] Figure it out,” you know? Like, it’s the biggest lever. It is, after reading, uh, Why, Why We Sleep- Mm-hmm … um, and y- about five, six years ago, before it became, sleep became, like, the hot topic, I remember reading it and just being like, oh, I just had my son.

[00:40:13] Daren DLake: And I was like, “Of course I read the book on sleep when I have my son,” and you know, he’s like three months old and not sleeping. But, uh, once he was able to start sleeping properly, it was like I stopped drinking because it was messing with my sleep. Um, like- 

[00:40:26] Brady Holmer: Yeah, you and me both, man. That was, like, the first thing that, like, when our son was born, he’s three now, but I was like, “My sleep is already gonna be crap.”

[00:40:33] Brady Holmer: I’m like, “I am not drinking alcohol for, like, a long time.” 

[00:40:37] Daren DLake: Yeah. Yeah, ’cause I, I just thought every time I’d, like, I took one drink at 2:00 PM- Mm-hmm … and even though I ate a bunch, perfectly fine, I would w- I’d just have this weird sleep. I would be like, I would feel like I never, I didn’t sleep properly. And I was like, “It’s the alcohol,” and I just, I cut it out.

[00:40:52] Daren DLake: I tried all these different, uh, I tried wine, beer, all these different things- Mm-hmm … and I was like, you know, hydrating, electrolytes, and I was just like, “I’m just, I’m not metabolizing [00:41:00] alcohol ’cause I’m older now, like the way I did when I was 20.” And I was like, “It’s done,” and I was like, I, my sleep is the biggest, you know, the biggest way I can improve the rest of my life.

[00:41:07] Daren DLake: So, uh, yeah, sleep, sleep is amazing. All right, this is, uh, the last one of this section. Um, so we’re talking about longevity and zone two. We haven’t talked about zone two at all really, uh, in here. Everyone loves zone two. I love zone two. Um- Mm-hmm … if you want, if you’re a, a watcher or listener of this, I referenced your, um, you talk with, uh, Christie- 

[00:41:28] Brady Holmer: Storchuk?

[00:41:29] Daren DLake: Yeah, Storchuk. Yeah. 

[00:41:30] Brady Holmer: Yeah. 

[00:41:30] Daren DLake: And, uh, I ended up using that ’cause I freaked out once I saw I read your article on that and I watched your, your episode with her. And I was like, “Oh my God, you have literally just disproven everything I’ve believed about zone two.” And I was just like, “What do I do with this?” And I, like, wrote this whole, like, uh, I, I had, you know, the paradox, and I was just, like, internally torn.

[00:41:50] Daren DLake: I was like, “But, but Moffaton and zone two is my life. It’s my identity. Like, how could you-” 

[00:41:54] Brady Holmer: Yeah, yeah. I mean, essentially what she did was kind of conduct this systematic review on zone two, look [00:42:00] at all the literature, and basically say, “Is zone two the best type of exercise for improving mitochondrial function, improving fat oxidation capacity in,” and this is, I think, the key nuance here, but, like, in the general population, which, let’s face it, is most people.

[00:42:15] Brady Holmer: So most people aren’t elite athletes training 20 hours per week. Most people are training five maybe maximum hours per week. So and essentially her conclusion was no, high-intensity interval training Matched for time, matched for power, or matched for kind of total output is more effective for increasing mitochondrial content, beneficial for improving mitochondrial, uh, quality, I guess is how we’ll put it, or mitochondrial function, and for increasing fat oxidation compared to zone 2.

[00:42:44] Brady Holmer: So, I think that one of the other conclusions too, and hopefully I’m, you know, Christie, hopefully I’m doing your paper justice here, but basically it was like there’s just not a lot of literature. If you look at all the studies, and this is certainly true, but, like, there aren’t really studies looking at [00:43:00] zone 2 exercise.

[00:43:01] Brady Holmer: What it’s referred to in the literature is low to moderate intensity, but that is, like, a wide, that’s a wide spectrum, you know? So, there’s just not… And I think that was the main conclusion was like, listen, we’re making all these claims about zone 2 where there’s, the research just doesn’t support this.

[00:43:16] Brady Holmer: We’re kind of placing this zone 2 name on anything that we want to say is moderate to low to moderate intensity, and it’s just not an accurate way of speaking about it. But basically, yeah, her, the, that conclusion of that paper, and I did an interview for my, for my Substack, and it was like it’s, it’s not better than, you know, high-intensity training is better than zone 2 essentially.

[00:43:35] Brady Holmer: It’s, it’s more efficient than zone 2 for improving all of those markers. 

[00:43:39] Daren DLake: So, thank you for clearing that up much better than I, I would have done. Um, so would you say that training specifically, if you’re just strapped for time, right? Uh, I always tell runners, I’m like, “Look, if you’re training for a race…”

[00:43:52] Daren DLake: If you, if you’re not training for anything, you just wanna run to live, you could run one day a week. You could run one day a week, that’s fine. You probably wanna do other things, like I’d say lift twice a [00:44:00] week, plus, uh, walking. Like, you wanna get four to five days of general, uh, aerobic cardio fitness, endurance fitness up, and get, get your heart rate zone 2 to zone 5, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:44:11] Daren DLake: Uh, but obviously 1% Better Runner, I focus on runners. I go, “You should try to run three days a week for a lot of reasons.” Running is one of those things that’s not very forgiving, um, as in you have to also think outside of your cardiovascular system and your pulmonary lung system, ’cause those get fit quickly.

[00:44:27] Daren DLake: You, you need to think about your musculoskeletal system, which is your body, tendons. Uh, those things take a bit longer, and you need to be more consistent with running. ‘Cause what do a lot of runners do? Uh, they run for a race for three months, stop running for three months, come back into running, try to run 20 miles a week again, and they get injured.

[00:44:43] Daren DLake: You know? Like, it’s, like, too much too soon because your body couldn’t handle it. Your lungs felt fine. So- Would you say someone strapped doing VO2 max, like, two VO2 max sessions a week plus one long run is gonna be way better than, like, three zone 2 runs? 

[00:44:59] Brady Holmer: I would definitely say [00:45:00] so. I mean, if you’re strapped for time, and I, and I hate to put kind of, like, time, uh, thresholds on something, but that’s what I’m gonna do.

[00:45:06] Brady Holmer: So, I would say if you are, if you are exercising, if you’re devoting less than 150 minutes a week to we’ll call it cardio, but, you know, endurance exercise, then I would say, let’s say you’re doing three sessions, 150 minutes a week. Um, I would say two of those should probably be higher intensity. Do I think you should be doing VO2 max work twice a week?

[00:45:26] Brady Holmer: Maybe not, but maybe one of those is, like, a zone 3, you know, a, a hard run, you know, where you’re not really like, “I’m purposefully staying in zone 2.” I think one of them could be a long zone 2 session, one of them should be like a threshold, kind of like a harder up tempo session, and then one, yes, do some, do some VO2 max work.

[00:45:43] Brady Holmer: So, you could do two high-intensity interval sessions a week, heck, maybe even three. You know, I think the le- the less time that you’re devoting to endurance exercise during the week or cardiovascular exercise during the week, the more intense that those sessions should be, I think. If you’re only doing two sessions per week, I think both of them could [00:46:00] be high intensity.

[00:46:01] Brady Holmer: You know, again, let’s assume you’re not doing two three-hour sessions. Let’s assume they’re two 30-minute sessions. Those should both basically be hard, ’cause if otherwise, you’re not getting the adaptation that you need to improve VO2 max or to improve just general cardiac health 

[00:46:16] Daren DLake: And you actually went into detail with Rhonda Patrick, um, about this.

[00:46:20] Daren DLake: It was about two, three months ago back in March, and you talked about the new study, the nine to one ratio, how like that… Not to botch it, but, uh, this is a, a perfect example of basically Doing hard stuff isn’t like a w- uh, a 2:1 ratio. Uh, it’s like 9:1, right? I think is what you, you came up, like doing harder intensity, getting your heart rate up.

[00:46:43] Daren DLake: You’ll get way more benefits than just walking around, correct? 

[00:46:47] Brady Holmer: Yes, exactly. It was like the whole 2:1 thing was like, oh, well, if you, if you do a low-intensity workout, you’re burning, uh, y- d- let’s say you do a low-intensity workout for 30 minutes. You’re gonna burn, I don’t know, 200 calories. If you do the [00:47:00] same m- 30 minutes at a high intensity, maybe you burn twice as many calories, so 400 calories.

[00:47:04] Brady Holmer: Yes, okay, that’s right, but this, essentially the study that we were talking about was looking at, like, the health benefits. So what is high intensity worth from a health perspective versus just a calorie burn perspective? And the conclusion there was, like, it was worth a lot more. And I think it makes sense just if you think about it physiologically, biologically, it’s like health is way more than just burning calories, right?

[00:47:23] Brady Holmer: I mean, you’re getting, you know, these cardiovascular adaptations, your brain health, your blood glucose regulation. High-intensity exercise is, like, way more effect- effective for all of those things just than… It’s so, you know, it’s so myopic to just think about it in terms of, oh, it’s hard, I’m burning more calories, so I’m getting fitter.

[00:47:40] Brady Holmer: But, like, you know, there are a lot of adaptations that are going on that are just, you know, far more than just calories. VO2 max, for example, you know? It’s, it’s way more effective at VO2 max than doing, like, a low-intensity session, so… 

[00:47:52] Daren DLake: All right, so yeah, this was the longevity section here. Um, hopefully, you know, if someone’s watching who’s 35 or 40, [00:48:00] what VO2 max number, this is a, a takeaway for everyone, what VO2 max number should they be targeting to stay in the top of their age?

[00:48:06] Daren DLake: I know there’s charts everywhere, but if you wanna just rattle off. I know men and women, um, there’s always, obviously men are a bit higher naturally- Mm-hmm … um, due to higher muscle mass, um- 

[00:48:15] Brady Holmer: Muscle mass, heart size as well plays a little bit into that, lung size, you know, just general organs just tend to be, like, larger.

[00:48:21] Brady Holmer: Got it. 

[00:48:22] Daren DLake: So- Got 

[00:48:22] Brady Holmer: it, yeah … gonna contribute to that higher VO2 max. Generally gonna be, like, 5 to 10 mLs per kg per minute higher for a man and a woman at, you know, the same age. 

[00:48:31] Daren DLake: Got it. Okay, that’s why I said my, my example was 38, and you were like, “That’s low.” And I was like, but for a woman, and now I’m looking at it, it’s like, oh- Mm-hmm

[00:48:37] Daren DLake: maybe 39. But yeah, key numbers. So for men 30 to 39, good is 47, excellent is 51.6. Uh, men 40 to 49, good is 44.9, excellent is 49.7. Women 30 to 39, good is 41, excellent or superior, uh, superior I think is actually, um, more the wording, 45.3. And then women 40 to 49, good is 39.2, excellent’s [00:49:00] 43.9. Uh, obviously don’t have 21, 20-year-olds in there.

[00:49:02] Daren DLake: I’ll have it on the screen. I didn’t say that. And then 50-year-olds, I’ll have it on the screen, and up. Also have links everywhere. Uh, find your age, find your number. That’s your target. If you’re below good, this episode just became really important for you. Uh, and B- Brady’s book argues, uh, the test should be as routine, like getting a VO2 max test- Whether you wanna do it in the lab, which I know you talk about, um, most people should do it if they can afford it, but you can also do the Cooper test.

[00:49:30] Daren DLake: Um, again, this is, uh, that was a lot. I’m just kinda sum it up. Do you have anything to add to that before we move to the next section? 

[00:49:38] Brady Holmer: No, I would just say I think all that’s great. I think 50 just as a number, you know, if you’re a male or a female of 30 years old or older, I think a target of 50 as a VO2 max is, like, a standard goal.

[00:49:49] Brady Holmer: I think that’s great, and yeah, you know, we maybe mentioned this at the beginning, but it’s like does everybody need to go to a lab and get a VO2 max test? Okay, of course not. You can do the 12-minute test, but I [00:50:00] mean, like you also mentioned, you know, every- most people are getting a blood test a couple of times a year, probably paying, if you’re getting a comprehensive blood panel from one of these sort of, like, boutique services now, that’s gonna run you $150 to $200.

[00:50:12] Brady Holmer: So people will spend You know, couple hundred dollars on that a year. A VO2 max test costs that much. You could do it yearly. You know, do it on your birthday, that’s what I like to say. Like- … I wanna start getting a VO2 max test every year on the week of my birthday just so I can, like, track this progress.

[00:50:26] Brady Holmer: So, um, everybody doesn’t need to do it, but it’s very accessible these days, and I almost guarantee if you live near, like, kind of a major city, you can find a place to do it. 

[00:50:35] Daren DLake: Or a university. I think you said that. Um, university, 

[00:50:37] Brady Holmer: a lot of uni- Yes, a university as well. Yeah. Yep. Some graduate student will be happy to practice a VO2 max test and get you one for 100 bucks or something.

[00:50:44] Daren DLake: Yeah, yeah. So if you’re in the, the middle of nowhere, um, there’s usually a university next to you. All right, how to actually improve VO2 max. So we’ve talked about, uh, if you wanna get that, you know, hopefully this might be broken up in different parts, other episodes on longevity and the theory behind VO2 max and the number and all that stuff, [00:51:00] but, um, this is how to do it.

[00:51:02] Daren DLake: This is the, the, the theoretical’s thrown away. It’s the practical, tactical. So someone’s been running for six months, never done intervals before. They just, they’ve been slogging along, you know, whatever, just hanging on for dear life. Usually, they can’t even keep their heart rate below zone four, but they’ve never done actual intervals.

[00:51:18] Daren DLake: What would you prescribe as a first VO2 max workout? 

[00:51:20] Brady Holmer: The actual workout is gonna be similar to what I would prescribe to a experienced runner, but the way in which I would say gauge your intensity will be different. So let’s just use a, an example for a, a newcomer runner. L- I’m just gonna go back to this, and I know that this is, like, talked about so much, but, like, everybody talks about the Norwegian 4X4 protocol, and it’s just, I think, why has it caught on?

[00:51:41] Brady Holmer: It’s simple, it’s easy to remember, but it’s also got, like, a lot of research behind it, and I think, I think it gets, um, crapped on a lot by coaches on social media because they’re like, “Oh, this is the pr- protocol that the health influencers say is the best.” But it’s like, if you look at the research, it is the best because it’s the most [00:52:00] researched protocol.

[00:52:00] Brady Holmer: I mean, there are hundreds of studies that have used this protocol. I’ve administered the Norwegian 4X4 protocol to people when I was in graduate school. This is the protocol that we used for some of those blood vessel function studies. It’s like, yeah, it’s not the b- it might not be the best, but it’s the most researched, and we know it works.

[00:52:17] Brady Holmer: So what is it? It’s four intervals of four minutes each, and then it has a three-minute recovery period in between. I think that’s great because it’s a, it hits that ideal distance or that ideal duration for a VO2 workout. It’s four minutes long. But for the newer runner, what I would say is forget your heart rate, forget a speed or a pace, just go by effort.

[00:52:39] Brady Holmer: Go out there and go run four minutes at, or, you know, run four minutes at a seven out of 10. Whatever you think in your mind is a seven out of 10. Like, I don’t want you looking at heart rate. It’s just, you can complicate things so much. And again, for a newer runner, you know, heart rate is gonna be, like, different than an experienced runner, so just go hard, you know?

[00:52:57] Brady Holmer: Six, seven, maybe even a eight out of 10 for [00:53:00] four minutes, and just do that protocol, but forget your heart rate and just g- go based off of effort. 

[00:53:05] Daren DLake: That seven out of 10, uh, turns very quickly into an eight out of 10. Uh, you know- Yeah … like, so you, you- people, they start, like, “Oh, it doesn’t feel hard.” I’m like, “Wait, wait till that, the lactate, like, starts filling in your blood, and then, you know, a minute and a half in, your, your lack of fitness will start showing- Mm-hmm

[00:53:20] Daren DLake: and you’re hanging on for dear life.” So that seven turns into literally same speed, same effort, and it becomes much harder. So yeah, um, I, I love that. Would you say maybe even, ’cause even early season I’ll prescribe 30, the 30 seconds on, 20 seconds off, like about 10 to 13 reps I’ll use prescribed. Would you say that’s, that’s decent?

[00:53:41] Brady Holmer: I think that’s great as well. I wouldn’t consider that as much of a VO2 max workout though as like the Norwegian 4×4 just because the problem with the shorter intervals, this is, this is why, this is the key to why those intervals of two to four minutes are good because there is, um, it, it takes a little bit w- it takes a while for [00:54:00] your oxygen consumption to actually get up to that VO2 max level when you’re doing a workout.

[00:54:04] Brady Holmer: So if you’re going real hard for 30 seconds, you’re gonna get oxygen consumption oh, up, up, up, up, up, up, up. But by the time it gets to kinda where your VO2 max is, you’re probably gonna be done with that interval. Whereas with the Norwegian 4×4 or, like, a four-minute interval, you get oxygen consumption up three minutes, you’re holding at 90% maybe of your oxygen, your VO2 max for three minutes, and then you’re dropping down.

[00:54:28] Brady Holmer: So there’s a little bit of a lag in your oxygen consumption or your VO2 kinetics is kind of like the, the official, like, physiological way to, to, like, put that, but- I like that … it takes a little while. There’s a bit of a lag. It happens with heart rate, too. So that’s what I would say. It, it’s a great workout.

[00:54:42] Brady Holmer: I’m not any- nothing against your workout. I think the 30 seconds on, 20 seconds off is great in terms of, like, a speed, like a more kinda anaerobic-y, like, looking workout. But in terms of VO2 max, I think just something, looking at something with, like, a little bit longer intervals would maybe be, um, better.

[00:54:58] Daren DLake: Got it. Okay. 

[00:54:59] Brady Holmer: Yep. 

[00:54:59] Daren DLake: Okay, ’cause I’m, [00:55:00] I, I always go, like, “Oh, you might not be ready for the four minutes, but, uh, you just gotta just suffer through it.” That’s why doing the effort- I see … is, is, uh- Yeah … is what And, yeah, 

[00:55:08] Brady Holmer: and even in that, in that case, I may, yeah, I think that’s a good point, though, and I would say, like, then maybe in that case the effort maybe is a, it’s a six or something, a six instead of, like, a seven or a eight.

[00:55:17] Brady Holmer: Again, it’s, it’s ha- effort, RPE is hard because sometimes beginner runners have a hard time gauging an effort. What’s a six? What’s an eight? What the heck is that supposed to feel like? That’s why I think maybe heart rate can kinda be useful, but, um, you know, instead of, like, a rating you could use something like the talk test where it’s like you wanna be doing these intervals and maybe if you have a friend next to you, you could say, “Hi, my name is Brady.”

[00:55:40] Brady Holmer: Like, speak like that, but you couldn’t talk like you and I are talking right now. This would be, like, more of a zone two type of conversation that you should be able to be having. But, um, yeah, I don’t think the, the time, the time shouldn’t be maybe a factor for the, for the person. It’s just gonna be kind of, like, the effort at, that you’re spending at that time, so.

[00:55:57] Daren DLake: Makes sense. All right, so your book says longer intervals, [00:56:00] and I, I love Jack Daniels, but whenever I read anything on VO2 max, they go anywhere between three- and eight-minute efforts. And his, uh, his logic or his reasoning is that once you go over five minutes, you start, um, accumulating way too much lactate, which causes a lot of issues down the road, and, you know, you basically are, uh, uh, cortisol gets released and recovery becomes, um, an issue.

[00:56:22] Daren DLake: And, you know, whether you’re training VO2 max at seven minutes, da, da, da, I know cyclists do more, like, seven-minute, eight-minute VO2 max efforts. So yeah, i- in the running sense, would you say five minutes is the limit, or would you be okay with seven, eight minutes? 

[00:56:35] Brady Holmer: No, I would say I think that that’s probably a good limit, because o- once you extend beyond that, so if you’re, if you’re truly doing a VO2 max effort and you extend it beyond five minutes, then I do kinda think that there are those diminishing returns, ’cause you’re getting, yeah, the lactate accumulation, just the fatigue.

[00:56:49] Brady Holmer: Your form’s gonna start breaking down. D- I don’t think intervals beyond five minutes are a bad idea, but those, if you go beyond that, that starts to progress more into, like, the threshold, [00:57:00] the tempo effort versus a VO2 max. So yeah, I think I do maybe say, like, a eight minute, but that’s, you’re kinda pushing it there again.

[00:57:07] Brady Holmer: So I’d really, yeah, the, the four to five minutes, I think that’s a good kind of point at which, yeah, if you go beyond that, you’re really gonna, like, start to stress and, um, eventually just hit a point where, like- You’re not gonna be running at your VO2 max speed, but your heart rate’s gonna be high, your lactate’s gonna be high.

[00:57:23] Brady Holmer: So yeah, I’d agree with Jack. I’m not gonna argue with Jack Daniels on, uh, on that point. 

[00:57:28] Daren DLake: You’ve both, you’ve both have written books on VO2 max, though, so you can if you want to. 

[00:57:32] Brady Holmer: All right. He’s got a little more experience than me on the to- on the matter, I think, but- 

[00:57:36] Daren DLake: Yeah, the, uh, uh, eh, you know what? This is the, uh, I call this the Kendrick versus, uh, Drake.

[00:57:41] Daren DLake: Like, we- I like both of, I like both of you guys. You know? Like, I don’t have to pick a side here. 

[00:57:45] Brady Holmer: I gotta write my diss track to Jack Daniels. 

[00:57:49] Daren DLake: Does VO2 max improvement flatten out after six weeks? 

[00:57:53] Brady Holmer: Certainly not. Um, I mean, you can continue to improve VO2 max. You can continue to improve on anything, [00:58:00] so long as your stimulus for improving that keeps going.

[00:58:02] Brady Holmer: So, I mean, any, any training’s gonna plateau after six weeks if you keep doing the same thing, of course, right? So if you say, “Do the four by four twice a week at this intensity,” after six weeks you might hit a plateau and you’re not gonna improve. But if you get more, if you up that intensity based on your fitness progression, then yes, it will not plateau.

[00:58:21] Brady Holmer: Um, so yeah, I think you can continue to increase your VO2 max beyond six weeks. Obviously, that depends on your initial fitness level too, right? I mean, some runners, you know, like, uh, we me- going way back to the, to the beginning of our conversation, um, you might not even improve your VO2 max much when you’re doing runs because, like, you’re a insanely fit athlete with a VO2 max of 80.

[00:58:42] Brady Holmer: Like, you might not improve it much more. But if you’re an unfit person, yes, you’re… I don’t mean unfit in a derogatory way, but untrained, I guess, and you’re starting to train, you know, your VO2 max is gonna continue to go up no matter what you do. But for the average person, yeah, if you start a new training regimen, add intervals to it, you could continue to improve it [00:59:00] beyond six weeks, for sure.

[00:59:01] Brady Holmer: Um, you know, the key is figuring out, you know, what, what are you gonna add, what kind of stimuluses you’re gonna add to that because obviously it’s not always just adding more intensity. We just talked about zone two, and it’s like, yeah, adding some more volume just onto that as well, in addition to intensity.

[00:59:15] Brady Holmer: But, um, the short answer to that, no, you know, you can increase your VO2 max w- well beyond six weeks. Some of the studies will show only up to six to eight weeks, but that’s because those studies were maybe only six to eight weeks long. They’re 12 minutes long. 

[00:59:27] Daren DLake: Yes. Uh, this is- Yeah … science not knowing what it’s talking about.

[00:59:30] Daren DLake: Sorry. 

[00:59:30] Brady Holmer: Yeah, right. 

[00:59:31] Daren DLake: Yeah, no, that’s, uh, that, that’s a joke. Science does know what it’s talking about, but science does not- only knows what it knows right now, and then it gets new information, and then we’ll know new things. So it’s not changing its mind. Yeah. That’ll change. 

[00:59:41] Brady Holmer: The problem is thinking the science is ever settled, which it, it never is, yeah.

[00:59:44] Daren DLake: Yeah. You say non-responders don’t exist, and I love, again, this is an article that you wrote. “With non-responders, the dose was just too low,” correct? 

[00:59:53] Brady Holmer: Yeah, that’s right. So- Yeah … it’s like, yeah, it’s been the, it’s such an interesting topic of, like, exercise physiology, and [01:00:00] it’s been around for so long, this, like, topic of non-responders.

[01:00:02] Brady Holmer: And the, the moment that I heard about it, you know, when I started studying this stuff in exercise science and, like, reading, I’m just like, “This doesn’t make any sense. You’re telling me that there are people out there who, like, they exercise and they don’t improve?” Uh, like it di- didn’t make any sense to me, and when you look at all the research now, the newer stuff, it’s like, yes, they were just not doing enough for them.

[01:00:22] Brady Holmer: I mean, we’re all individual, right? And if I give you- Uh, you know, say exercise for three hours a week at this intensity and I do the same exercise, we’re not gonna respond the same to that. And so they reran a lot of the studies on these people who were so-called non-responders, and that essentially means they did this exercise and their v- this regimen six weeks, their VO2 max didn’t improve.

[01:00:42] Brady Holmer: They were a non-responder. Well, they redid some of these studies and said, “Oh, we’re gonna give you two more exercise sessions a week,” or, “We’re gonna give you another high-intensity interval session.” If you throw more intensity or throw more volume at the people, everybody responds eventually. It’s just what threshold of intensity and/or [01:01:00] duration do you, do you hit that, um, response at?

[01:01:03] Brady Holmer: So yeah, the idea of non-responders has kind of been put to rest. It’s just like you’re just not doing enough for yourself, um, if you are not responding. Now, that doesn’t mean you’re like, “Oh, you’re too lazy. You’re not working hard.” It’s just like you just haven’t found the sweet spot yet of what you need to do to get better.

[01:01:17] Daren DLake: So what about the runners who are scared of going hard? ‘Cause VO2 max, it’s uncomfortable, and, um, another writer who I really like, uh, Matt Fitzgerald, uh, I don’t know if you know Matt Fitzgerald, 8020. 

[01:01:29] Brady Holmer: Oh, yeah. 

[01:01:29] Daren DLake: He’s 

[01:01:29] Brady Holmer: awesome. He’s 

[01:01:30] Daren DLake: great. Um, yeah, he’s written, like, 100 books, um and they’re all, all great, great books.

[01:01:33] Daren DLake: Um- Yeah. … but he actually wrote one of the early articles about VO2 max, and this is about eight years ago when I, when I realized I was not doing VO2 max sessions. I was doing a whole lot of zone two- Mm-hmm … and, uh, a bit of strength training, so zone five, quote-unquote, um, and plyometrics, but I never really touched that zone four.

[01:01:50] Daren DLake: And he said something really interesting. He said, uh, “Most runners and most cyclists don’t do this because it’s hard.” Mm-hmm. And everyone does the tempo runs ’cause it’s kinda easy, kinda hard, gray [01:02:00] zone, zone three, you know? Like, that’s like, that, that’s your race pace for a lot of, you know, 10K, half-marathon, sometimes marathon.

[01:02:05] Daren DLake: So, uh, the zone four is like, whoa. Like, you like, you’re tired at the end, you know, like, you know, doubled over or bent over, like tech… So what would you say of those, those runners who, w- who are subconsciously scared of going hard, or even consciously? How do they get into it? 

[01:02:19] Brady Holmer: Yeah, I mean, man, I think, I think it’s just kind of a, an exposure thing, I guess.

[01:02:23] Brady Holmer: I mean, yeah, I, I would agree. It’s, it’s terrible. Like, I don’t, I don’t probably do a ton of VO2 max work. I probably should do some more. I mean, you- What, wait, wait … you, it’s one of those that you- Wait. 

[01:02:30] Daren DLake: The guy that wrote the book on VO2 max essentials doesn’t do a VO2 max workout every single day? 

[01:02:35] Brady Holmer: I should be doing it every single day, right?

[01:02:37] Brady Holmer: Yes, uh, twice a day, so. It’s, uh, practice what you preach, right? Yeah. 

[01:02:39] Daren DLake: Yeah. 

[01:02:40] Brady Holmer: I burnt myself out for this book. Um, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s uncomfortable. I would say, you know, if you’re, if you’re scared to do it, I would say figure out ways to introduce it, like, lightly into your routine. I mean, you don’t have to do a go to the well, like, barfing, need days to recover VO2 max [01:03:00] workout every week.

[01:03:00] Brady Holmer: I mean, something I’ve liked doing lately is sort of hitting your VO2 max intensity, um, through what I’m calling, like, micro intervals on some of my runs. So I’ll go out on, say, like, a 12-mile run, um, on a Monday. I’ll do 80 minutes, and then during that last mile of my run, I’ll basically do 90 seconds, uh, a interval 90 seconds, two intervals of 45 seconds, four intervals of 20 seconds, and that’s probably around, like, a VO2 max speed for me, VO2 max intensity.

[01:03:26] Brady Holmer: But, you know, you’re not, you’re not wasted after that workout. I’m probably still getting a little bit of VO2 max work, but just, like, teaching your body to run fast. I think introducing yourself into it to realize that you can handle it. Um, but I mean, I don’t know. I, I, other than that, I don’t really have, like, a great strategy of how does this…

[01:03:42] Brady Holmer: It’s not gonna get easier. It’s just, like, you, you gotta do it. You gotta expose yourself to it. But maybe, you know, don’t flesh out this workout that seems way too intimidating for you. Just plan out a workout that’s, uh, maybe you’re gonna go do 4 by 400 meters at the track. That could be, like, a VO2 max workout.

[01:03:57] Brady Holmer: Or, or 2 by 800, 3 by, you know, 4 [01:04:00] by 800. Something simple where you’re gonna touch on those speeds to know what it feels like, but not that it’s going to intimidate you, so you, so you won’t do it at all. 

[01:04:09] Daren DLake: I like to say, uh, start at a seven, as we said before. Start at a seven- Mm-hmm … and end that at eight with the, with the actual interval and with the whole set.

[01:04:17] Daren DLake: So it’s kinda like micro and macro, so you can zoom in and zoom out. Yeah. Um, and, uh, it’s actually pretty much, even when I do 12 by 400s, which I know is… Well, we’ll talk about that in a second, 12 by 400s with half rest, uh, which is kind of a, it’s mostly VO2 max, a bit more threshold. I know they’re close cousins.

[01:04:34] Daren DLake: Um, but if you start at a eight, you’re done. You’re cooked. You’re cooked too soon. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, if you start at too slow, do we get the effects? I know early on you said that, yeah, there are. It’s a gradient, it’s a spectrum. Um, but, uh, I always think about, you know, uh, you saying, like, you just gotta, you just gotta jump in the fire.

[01:04:50] Daren DLake: Uh, Greg LeMond, the on- the only cyclist that has legally won all of the Tour de Frances, um, American, sorry, American, uh, [01:05:00] Lance Armstrong, he lost it. But, uh, he says, uh, “It doesn’t get easier. You just go faster.” And I know Steve Magness, he actually said this, uh, which was, “When you get fitter, it does get a little bit easier.”

[01:05:09] Daren DLake: Like, your brain is actually- It- … okay with the suffering when you’re fitter. And I was like, yeah- Yeah, it’s, it’s your 

[01:05:14] Brady Holmer: brain, not your body, yeah. 

[01:05:15] Daren DLake: Yeah, so that goes against actually LeMond’s, like, it doesn’t get easier, you go faster. Like, I think- … you get more comfortable. Like, what, even pro runners, I’m sure, and when you ran your 2:24 marathon, uh, I, I don’t, I don’t know, but I’m sure it’s like, uh, maybe back at, uh, college, the end of a race, someone put a microphone in your face, they’re like, “How do you feel?”

[01:05:31] Daren DLake: Tired wouldn’t be one of them. 

[01:05:32] Brady Holmer: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:32] Daren DLake: Like, I remember reading this, it’s like pro marathon, you n- they’re never like, “I’m tired.” Like, looking at Sawe run his sub-two- 

[01:05:38] Brady Holmer: Dude. It was- So it’s like he finished his own two run. 

[01:05:41] Daren DLake: I was like, what? Like, that, that kills me. This is nuts. I’m like, he had- Yeah … I’m sure every one, amateur runner was like, “He could’a ran 10 minutes faster,” you know?

[01:05:47] Daren DLake: Like, it’s just ending it, it’s like, damn, like pros never are doing that amateur like, “Ugh, I’m, I’m dead.” No. You know, like, they’re always ending races like, “Eh, two…” You know, it’s, they’re doubled over for five seconds, and they’re, “Yeah, hey, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And you’re [01:06:00] just like- Mm-hmm

[01:06:00] Daren DLake: “He just ran a marathon in two hours. Uh, how can you do that?” So yeah, that’s my, my mentality. All right, so close this out. Um, give someone watching a four-week starter plan, just off the top of your head. Uh, again, they’ve never done VO2 max intervals. You could just, I know it’s a lot of numbers. Feel free to make it as simple as you want.

[01:06:16] Brady Holmer: Yeah, for sure. So I don’t know, let’s say you’re gonna do a starter plan. I’ll give you like a three-day-per-week plan maybe, somebody who’s willing to do three days per week into this thing. Um, you know, uh, it wouldn’t be much different from kind of like a health and longevity like framework for, for exercising.

[01:06:31] Brady Holmer: I mean, you’re, you’re gonna do something really long every single week. I think most runners need that probably, you know, um, uh, long for you obviously, but like 60 to 90 minutes probably, you know. 1.5 times maybe the, the length of your normal workout would be like the, your long workout. Maybe that’s a hike too.

[01:06:47] Brady Holmer: Maybe it’s not even like a run. Maybe it’s a long bicycle ride, something like that. Um, then I think, yeah, your, your VO2 max work, I mean, listen, I think do something that involves a… Where your VO2 max [01:07:00] work is gonna be two to five-minute interval duration. Uh, your rest is gonna be probably like a 2:1 work-rest ratio, so if you’re gonna do like a four-minute interval, your rest is gonna be, I don’t know, let’s say two minutes.

[01:07:11] Brady Holmer: You could cut that down even more. It makes it a little bit more of a VO2 max workout, so maybe like a You know, a 4:1 kind of, like, work-rest ratio, 3:1, something like that. Um, that would make it a little bit more, you know, you don’t wanna sacrifice intensity by sacrificing your, um, recovery. But I think, yeah, that, like, 2:1, 3:1 work-rest ratio, two to five-minute intervals.

[01:07:30] Brady Holmer: Do, you know, um, I don’t know, get a total of 20 to 30 minutes worth of, like, total work in there, so that’s, like, five to six intervals. Do that once a week, you know? And, and that gives you the freedom to, like, mix it up. You know, you can do five-minute intervals one week, two-minute intervals the other week.

[01:07:44] Brady Holmer: Um, I think that’s kind of a good starter plan, and just, like, a general framework. And then what should you do for, like, kinda your other sessions? I mean, to be honest, I think if you’re doing one of those VO2 max sessions a week, you could just make that other session, like, a zone two session. You could maybe even go a little bit more intense if you wanted [01:08:00] to.

[01:08:00] Brady Holmer: You know, if you’re a beginner, like, don’t worry too much about the zone two. It’s like, if you wanna maybe push that run a little bit more and you’re, you know, you think you’re not pushing kind of the limit of your volume, I would say have a little freedom, maybe run a little bit harder on that run. I think if you’re giving yourself adequate recovery in between your runs, then it, that’s kind of, like, uh, fine to do.

[01:08:17] Brady Holmer: You don’t need to be running so uncomfortably slow on a run that you’re like, “Oh, my God, this is boring.” And I think that the problem with all this VO2 max craze is, like, a lot of runners have started doing that. Yeah, I think you need to do that maybe if you’re at your, like, pushing your limits in terms of your weekly volume.

[01:08:34] Brady Holmer: If you’re running 60, 70, 80, 90 miles a week and you’ve never done that, maybe you should have a run that’s the, you’re doing the Kenyan shuffle, you know, where they’re- Yeah … just out there like a… You’re running, like, 9, 10-minute mile pace and you’re a f- you know, two-hour marathoner. But that’s if you’re at, like, the limit of your kind of endurance thing.

[01:08:49] Brady Holmer: So I don’t know, that would, that would be my framework. You know, it’s always hard to kinda put, “This is the numbers and the durations you should do on this,” but I think that would be a solid framework for any runner who’s like, “I’m trying to get my p- VO2 max up. Couch to- [01:09:00] not Couch to 5K, but, like, I wanna take my training up kind of, like, uh, one level from where I’m at.”

[01:09:04] Daren DLake: Well, uh, let’s get into rapid fire. Is this a VO2 max workout? Here it is. And tell me, because, uh, we’ve talked about that earlier, either in this episode or in previous episodes. Um, I just wanna know for my own sanity, and I’m sure people out there, because VO2 max can get confusing, it gets lumped in with threshold and, I don’t know, anaerobic.

[01:09:23] Daren DLake: Like, everyone just, “Uh, what’s VO2 max?” So basically, does this, does this improve your VO2 max- Got it … in a optimal way? Let’s, let’s get more scientific. Does this improve your VO2 max in a optimal way? ‘Cause like you said, everything can improve your VO2 max. If you’re sedentary- Mm-hmm … doing anything will improve your VO2 max

[01:09:39] Daren DLake: So, you know, walking- Yep … will improve your VO2 max if you’ve never done anything for years. Okay, here we go. 20-minute easy zone one, zone two run. 

[01:09:49] Brady Holmer: No 

[01:09:50] Daren DLake: No. It’s not op- it’s not optimal for improving your VO2 max, everyone. Okay? 

[01:09:54] Brady Holmer: Right. 

[01:09:55] Daren DLake: All right, there we go. It’s, it’s not, not saying that it’s not a good thing.

[01:09:57] Daren DLake: All right. Uh, Norwegian four by fours. [01:10:00] 

[01:10:00] Brady Holmer: Yes. 

[01:10:01] Daren DLake: Okay, that’s four minutes on, three minutes-ish off, uh- Three minutes 

[01:10:05] Brady Holmer: off, 

[01:10:06] Daren DLake: yep … four, four of those. 

[01:10:07] Brady Holmer: Repeat it four times. Yep Yep 12 

[01:10:08] Daren DLake: by 400 meters at slightly faster than 5K pace with half rest. That is, that is my protocol. Uh, I used to run that in track when I ran 800s, and the 1500 guys would run that.

[01:10:20] Daren DLake: And then I realized that actually, I thought it was just some BS workout. I didn’t knew nothing about exercise science 25 years ago when I ran this. Uh, but then I realized there was actually a lot of validity to it, and I realized it was very much so a VO2 max workout. But is it a optimal VO2 max workout?

[01:10:34] Brady Holmer: Yeah, totally. I’d agree with that. Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:36] Daren DLake: Okay. And that rest is, it’s, uh, it’s two to one, as you talked about. So- 

[01:10:39] Brady Holmer: Mm-hmm … 

[01:10:40] Daren DLake: uh, just for reference, it would be 12 one-lap repeats, or 400 meter repeats, and then I would do them in, I don’t know, when I’m usually pretty fit, 80 seconds, and then I rest for 40 seconds.

[01:10:53] Daren DLake: So it’s like, it’s basically on two minutes. Hmm. If you’re a swimmer, you might know the on thing. Um, so once the two minutes hits around, so basically I do it in [01:11:00] 1:20, and then it’s ticking 1:40, 1:50, and then I hit two minutes and I go again. Um, and what happens is my heart rate actually, like, does this kinda ramping thing, which is really cool.

[01:11:09] Daren DLake: Every interval, it, like, starts off higher, higher, higher, higher, higher- Mm … but it drops. Uh, and you’re saying it is optimal for VO2 max, correct? 

[01:11:15] Brady Holmer: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that’s a… I’ve never done that one, but I’m gonna add that to, uh, to my list. 

[01:11:19] Daren DLake: All right, 90 minutes of zone two running. Longer zone two. Is that gonna improve VO2 max optimal?

[01:11:25] Brady Holmer: Um, yeah, I, I consider that one a VO2 max workout. Little more indirectly, but yep. 

[01:11:31] Daren DLake: Nice. Nice. That, that was a surprise. Uh, strides after an easy run. So strides are, like, I call it fast, controlled running, not sprinting. Mm-hmm. Uh, and yeah, some people argue. So yeah, strides after run 10 to 20 seconds, will that do it?

[01:11:46] Brady Holmer: Uh, no. 

[01:11:47] Daren DLake: No? 

[01:11:47] Brady Holmer: Not a VO2 max workout. 

[01:11:48] Daren DLake: Not a VO2 max. What 

[01:11:49] Brady Holmer: are you- That’s a, that’s a neuromuscular workout, I would say. You’re just practicing running fast. 

[01:11:54] Daren DLake: Got it 

[01:11:54] Brady Holmer: Economy-s type stuff, yep. 

[01:11:56] Daren DLake: Okay. Uh, racing a 5K [01:12:00] park run whatever, local yokel chatter. Is that gonna improve VO2 max? 

[01:12:04] Brady Holmer: Yeah. 

[01:12:05] Daren DLake: Okay. 

[01:12:05] Brady Holmer: Yeah, for sure. I think if you wanna do a…

[01:12:07] Brady Holmer: I, I love the idea of, uh, the concept of racing as, like, a weekly workout. I like doing that every now and then. Not every week, but That’s definitely a VO2 max workout 

[01:12:18] Daren DLake: I know you said that in the book also. You said, uh- 

[01:12:20] Brady Holmer: Mm-hmm … 

[01:12:21] Daren DLake: just go out and just run a 5K as fast as you can- Yeah … and that will improve your VO2 max also, which I think is great.

[01:12:27] Daren DLake: Uh, ’cause usually park runs are free in a lot of the world. I know park runs aren’t as popular in America, uh, but they, they’re- Yeah, I 

[01:12:33] Brady Holmer: wish they were more, I wish they were more popular. Hopefully soon. 

[01:12:36] Daren DLake: They’re huge Australian UK, huge. Like- 

[01:12:39] Brady Holmer: I know, I’m ja- I’m jealous. 

[01:12:40] Daren DLake: Yeah, it’s great. It’s like community and yeah, it’s, it’s like- Mm-hmm

[01:12:43] Daren DLake: becoming a religion um, here. All right. Hill sprints. So 20 to 30 seconds all out with, like, two-minute rest walk down. Would that improve VO2 max? 

[01:12:52] Brady Holmer: Yeah, I think so. I think maybe with something with, like, a lower rest might be better, but yeah- Oh … hill sprints, that’s a VO- VO2 max workout. Maybe extend the hill sprint a [01:13:00] little bit and, like, do a little bit, maybe make sure you’re jogging on that recovery down just to kinda keep heart rate elevated a little bit, but yeah, that’s a VO2 max workout.

[01:13:08] Daren DLake: Okay. Yeah, so that goes back to, uh, my 12 by 400s. It’s about keeping your heart rate elevated- Yeah … in the not 100% efforts. And I think- Mm … um, how people get that 12 by 400 workout wrong is that they end up doing, uh, they go too hard on the 400s, and they spend two, three minutes recovering, and- Yeah … then it becomes not a VO2 max, and it becomes more of an anaerobic, which is fine if that’s what you were prescribed, but, uh, again, I’m getting into the coaching mindset right here.

[01:13:37] Daren DLake: But, um, if you wanna improve your VO2 max, if you’re in that part of the season or the period, um, I always do the half rest slightly slower, uh, or sorry, it’ll be slightly faster than 5K pace. We’re not going at one mile pace. We’re not going at faster than one mile all out where we need three, four, five minutes rest, so I love that you, you’re saying, yeah, uh, you’re saying go slightly l- less hard on the hill and then keep [01:14:00] jogging through, and that will improve- Yep

[01:14:01] Daren DLake: VO2 max. 

[01:14:02] Brady Holmer: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:02] Daren DLake: Uh, all right, and the last one, just running really hard for three hours. Does that improve your VO2 max? 

[01:14:07] Brady Holmer: Yeah, but it might not be the best way to do it. 

[01:14:11] Daren DLake: The best way for, like, sustainability and longevity? 

[01:14:13] Brady Holmer: For sustainability, yeah. Okay. Heck, if you wanna go out on a Saturday every now and then and, like, run your butt off for three hours, that’s gonna certain- definitely improve your VO2 max, yeah.

[01:14:22] Daren DLake: Oh, okay. All right, cool. So there, okay, that, that’s, that’s interesting, yeah. But how well do you recover or do you come back? ‘Cause then you might take three- 

[01:14:28] Brady Holmer: Yeah, you know, again, like, maybe a, I mean, that’s, you’re almost saying, like, racing a marathon, you know, for maybe some people, but I mean, that would, yeah, could be a VO2 max workout, but, uh, don’t do it too often.

[01:14:39] Brady Holmer: Doesn’t sound like the best way to do it. 

[01:14:40] Daren DLake: Brady, if someone does everything we talked about today, the field test, they find their number on the chart, they follow the four-week plan, all the stuff we talked about in previous episodes possibly, what should they expect? Like, in eight weeks, what kind of improvement is realistic?

[01:14:55] Brady Holmer: Yeah, a, a realistic eight-week improvement I would say anywhere, you know, again, depends a lot on your [01:15:00] starting point, but I mean, a 5 to 10 mL per kg per minute increase, I don’t think that is unrealistic. That’s what you see in a lot of these studies for sure, especially if you’re doing some of the stuff like we mentioned.

[01:15:10] Brady Holmer: I mean, you know, maybe you’re adding ketones, maybe you’re adding sauna, you know, just some of these things that are gonna get you a little, little bit extra of, like, a boost. Um, but if you just do the training, yeah, five, five to 10 mL per kg per minute increase, I don’t think that’s unreasonable, um, to expect.

[01:15:24] Brady Holmer: Unless you’re starting off, you’re a super elite, highly trained runner, you might not be able to expect that improvement. But your general person who maybe hasn’t done a ton of this stuff in the past, I think they could expect that. 

[01:15:38] Daren DLake: Well, you just said sauna, and I totally forgot to put that in the, uh, workouts, but, uh- Yeah

[01:15:41] Daren DLake: I do a lot of sauna, and I know you do, too. Does sauna- Nice, 

[01:15:44] Brady Holmer: yep … 

[01:15:44] Daren DLake: does sauna improve VO2 max? I know there’s a lot of studies. I know… Does it? Does it not? 

[01:15:48] Brady Holmer: Yeah, not, not by, not by itself, but if you add it to your training, it’ll improve your VO2 max more than if you were to just do that training. And it’s, you know, a two to three mL per kg per minute increase, a two to three-point increase, I guess, is how we [01:16:00] could say it.

[01:16:00] Brady Holmer: So yeah, I mean, two to three times a week, hit up the sauna post-exercise, and you’ll get sort of that extra, that additional gain again. So- 

[01:16:08] Daren DLake: I’ve- I’ve seen it … definitely use 

[01:16:09] Brady Holmer: it. 

[01:16:09] Daren DLake: Yeah, I- I- I am perfect anecdotal, uh, proper evidence. Like, I won’t train as much, hit the sauna regularly, and I’ll be like, I’ll do a VO2 max workout, and I’m like, “Yo, I don’t, I didn’t lose that much over the last three or four weeks.”

[01:16:21] Daren DLake: Mm-hmm. I was like, “I- I’m, it must be the sauna.” Like, I, that was probably, you know, the, one of the biggest things. Might be in my head, um, but I didn’t feel as- I mean, I didn’t feel as tired. There was no proper data, but feelings are data. Right. Uh, all right. Yeah. Brady, thank you for your time. Uh, Brady wrote the book on this, literally.

[01:16:37] Daren DLake: I’m gonna link VO2 Max Essentials- … uh, below in the show notes, uh, or whatever, description, wherever you’re listening or watching this. Everyone has their own preference. He’s also got a free bonus chapter on physiological resilience that goes deeper on the aging side, and he has a newsletter. Go check out his newsletter.

[01:16:54] Daren DLake: I know you’re on X also, Brady Holmer. Uh, the newsletter’s on Substack. [01:17:00] And, uh, you’re a bit on Instagram. I see you floating around there. And if you grab my free training plan in the description, you’ll also get signed up to Brady’s Run Long Run Healthy newsletter. We’re doing a little bit of share there, uh, full disclosure.

[01:17:12] Daren DLake: Uh, and go test your mile, go find your number, start the four-week plan that I’m gonna give you, which is VO2 max improvement, and I’ll see you on the next one. Do you have anything to end this with, Brady, to tell the, the world? 

[01:17:26] Brady Holmer: No, Daren. Just wanna say thanks a lot. And, uh, yeah, I mean, we started this off by saying maybe everybody doesn’t need a VO2 max test, but if you can get one, I really think it’s just a huge, important health investment, whether you’re interested just in longevity, whether you’re interested in this as a runner.

[01:17:42] Brady Holmer: It’ll tell you where you’re at, it’ll tell you if your training program is actually working, and it’ll tell you kind of if you’re headed on the right trajectory. So I think it’s a, it’s a small investment, it’s a fun thing to do. “Fun” in quotes, but, uh, yeah. Go do one. Daren, appreciate it. This was a, this was an awesome conversation.

[01:17:57] Daren DLake: Sir, all the best with your, your marathon and, [01:18:00] um, everything else that you do. 

[01:18:02] Brady Holmer: Appreciate it.

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Links & Learnings

• 📈 Get your free improve Vo2 Max Training Plan here – https://dlakecreates.com/vo2masterfree
• 🎧 Listen, read and learn more here https://dlakecreates.com/vo2master
• How To Do The Cooper Test – https://www.verywellfit.com/fitness-test-for-endurance-12-minute-run-3120264
• Vo2 Max 4×4 Protocol – https://dlakecreates.com/4×4
• Brady Holmer – Vo2 Max Essentials Book – https://www.bradyholmer.com/ebook
• Brady Holmer – Why Vo2 Max Still Matters – https://runlongrunhealthy.substack.com/p/why-vo-max-still-matters-for-longevity
• The Dallas Bed Rest Study – https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2655009/
• Brady Holmer on Substack – https://substack.com/@bradyholmer
• Brady Holmer on X – https://x.com/Brady_H?lang=en
• Brady Holmer on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/brady.j.holmer/?hl=en
• Instagram – https://instagram.com/dlakecreates
• Strava – https://www.strava.com/athletes/120507